How do I fit everything in? Annette Gray on leading as a coach

If leadership feels heavier than it used to, you’re not imagining it. We sit down with leadership and coaching specialist Annette Gray to get honest about what effective school leadership looks like in 2026, and why the leaders who thrive now are the ones who ask better questions, share power, and stay deeply human while the system keeps demanding more.

We unpack the difference between trust-based leadership and the kind that slips into control and micromanagement. Annette explains how capability and “levels of work” can shape a leader’s behaviour, why self-awareness is the real starting point, and how shifting from below-the-line reactions to above-the-line choices changes culture fast. We also tackle the very real NSW constraint of one protected hour a week for professional learning, and reframe development as something that happens through purposeful conversations all day long, not only in formal meetings.

Then we get practical. Annette coaches Drew live on a genuine principal challenge: improving student growth in maths fundamentals while keeping staff engaged and supported. You’ll hear solution-focused coaching in action, including scaling, defining a preferred future, noticing what’s already working, and choosing a next small step that fits into the week you actually have.

We also share how you can learn these skills through the NSW Primary Principals Association coaching foundations program, with a two-day workshop in Ultimo (28 and 29 July) and an online option across four August mornings (11, 13, 18, 20). If this helped you rethink how you lead, subscribe, share it with a colleague, and leave a review so more principals can find it.

This is not a conversation about strategies and checklists. It is about the way you have your next conversation.

In this conversation, you will hear:

-> What leadership is becoming, and why "wise leadership" is learned through doing, not through one more program
-> The story of the two leaders who shaped Annette's career, one who brought out her best, one who brought out her worst, and the single difference between them
-> What an effective leader actually does today: agency, autonomy, and being trusted to work things out
-> How to fit everything in when you have one protected hour a week, by building a coaching culture instead of carrying it all yourself
-> Why your people want a coach, not a boss, and how coaching can be distilled into three questions you can ask in five minutes
-> A live, unscripted, real play, where Annette coaches Drew for around eight minutes on a genuine school challenge, so you can hear exactly what solution-focused coaching sounds like

If you have ever asked yourself "how do I fit everything in", this episode is for you.

 ABOUT ANNETTE GRAY

Annette Gray is a leadership and coaching specialist. She began as a high school teacher before moving into corporate learning and development, leadership development and strategic HR, and now works with leaders across sectors on solution focused coaching. She presents the Foundations program for NSWPPA.

More about Annette: https://www.annettegray.com.au/about-annette-gray

COACHING COURSES WITH ANNETTE, 2026

Foundations: Leading Solution Focus Coaching Conversations

"The most practical coaching training I have attended in my career." Jono Coombes, Principal, Artarmon Public School

July, in person, two days, NSW PPA Office, Ultimo, Sydney
Tuesday 28 and Wednesday 29 July, 9.00am to 4.30pm
Register: https://www.annettegray.com.au/offers/eLA35Yig/checkout

August, online, four mornings, 9.00am to 12.30pm AEST
Tuesday 11, Thursday 13, Tuesday 18 and Thursday 20 August
Register: https://www.annettegray.com.au/offers/URTtqbLF/checkout

Both programs include after-course coaching check-ins to embed the skills.

IDEAS MENTIONED 

-> Solution focused coaching: ask more, tell less, redirect to what is wanted
-> Above the line and below the line behaviours
-> Distributed leadership and building a coaching culture
-> The three coaching questions: what is happening for you now, how do you want it to be, what is your next small step
-> "You are the expert in your world, I am a guide on the side"

CONNECT WITH NSWPPA -

Website: nswppa.org.au
Professional Learnings Podcast: professionallearningsnswppa.buzzsprout.com
LinkedIn: NSW Primary Principals Association

Read less

Links and References:

To view  our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning

To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue

Transcript

Welcome And Why Annette Returns

Host Drew 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to the New South Wales Primary Principles Association Professional Learnings podcast. I'm Drew Janetzki and I'm really glad you're here. Earlier this year, Annette Gray came on the show and that conversation genuinely struck a chord. So many of you reached out, and honestly, it felt like we'd only scratched the surface. So we brought her back. This time we're going deeper, asking the bigger, more honest questions about where leadership is really sitting right now. Annette is a leadership and coaching specialist. She began her career as a high school teacher, then moved into corporate learning and development, and she spent years helping leaders get comfortable with one fundamental shift: asking more and telling less. In this episode, we dig into four things that pretty much every principal is grappling with. We talk about what leadership actually looks like today and how it's shifted. What genuinely makes an effective leader in this climate, how you possibly fit it all in when you've only got one protected hour a week, and what it really means to lead like a coach rather than a boss. Then we do something a little different, and honestly a little vulnerable. Annette coaches me live on a real challenge I'm facing. Not a role play, a real coaching conversation. So you can actually hear what this kind of coaching sounds like when it's happening. Stick around to the end too because Annette is running coaching courses through the association this year and will let you know how to get involved, whether that's face-to-face or online. Alright, let's get into it. Well, welcome colleagues. It's a pleasure to have you, and we have back on the podcast by popular demand. She is such a wonderful has such wonderful insight in terms of leadership and coaching, and it really resonated with our audience. And so it's a pleasure to welcome you back, Annette Gray. Thank you so much, Drew. I'm really excited about the conversation and continue this conversation that we had earlier in the Absolutely, as am I. And in terms of the conversations, colleagues, I really want you to wherever you are, think around. These are some really big questions that are coming through. And Annette, I'm going to put you on the spot in terms of the some challenging, potentially some confronting questions, but I think it's the right time to be asking these questions as we're we're halfway through 2026 and we sort of do that pulse check of where things are landing at the moment. Um so if you're comfortable with that, let's let's see if we can go into that space. I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah, yeah, so am I.

Defining Leadership Today

Host Drew 2:49

So my first big question, Annette, is it's a it's a big one to say, well, what is leadership? What's that is it's such an interesting word, leadership, isn't it? And what what what does leadership mean to you? I've been doing a lot of reading about this and and watching, because our world some of our world leaders aren't great at leadership. So what is leadership? We can agree that audience I'm sure would agree with you. But how do they get into that position and and and then we know what we sort of hopefully in the back our minds go, well, what is good leadership as well? Because we're sort of seeing examples of bad leadership. Yes, for sure. And um, you know, I remember uh watching a video, uh, you know, an interview with Barack Obama, and he said each level of leadership I went, you know, I was promoted into, he thought that level will have it all sorted out. And then he became president of um United States and he went, I'm interacting with these world leaders, and they still haven't got it sorted out. So I think that what is leadership, I think it's changing. You know, it it used to be the focus, it was the two elements of good leadership was managing the task and managing the relationship. I think that is still there, but I think it's so much more than that. I think it this concept of how how do we develop great leaders, and I think it's it comes down to what I've read recently about what wise leadership is. And that that isn't go to a course and you're suddenly a wise leader, it happens through action learning, it happens through doing. Yeah. Um, and and I'm seeing a lot of my work is sort of moving towards that. How do we help others learn by doing? You know, and it and it's not just a leadership program, it's uh really doing some navel gazing around why do I lead in the way I lead? What have been the strong influences in my life that makes me do what I do? Yeah. Yeah. So it's really helping leaders become more conscious of what is it? What is your philosophy of how you lead? What is the purpose of why you became a leader? And then lastly, is what does that translate into your practice? So extending upon that, that what is leadership notion, and thank you, great examples there. What

What Effective Leaders Do

Host Drew 5:46

The question from that is what is an effective leader today then? What does that look and sound and feel like today? Or and even further building upon that, what's what do why do you think people become or chose to be a leader in it? So I think effective leadership, like if I tell you a story about one of the leaders in my career that had the biggest impact on me, and I'm still hearing myself say things that he said. Um so I I think for me, you know, the the leader had who had the most impact on me was when I was in my 30s. And he was 36 at the time. So he's very relatively young leader. Was this in education or is this in another industry? This was in um the finance sector. Okay. Yeah. So um my background is I was a high school teacher. Yeah. Um, taught for a number of years, and then moved across into corporate and did uh was in learning and development and then leadership development, strategic HR. So he was the HR director at the time. But it was not only him, it was the managing director at the time. And both were very big thinkers, and both were about how can we change this organizational culture? And they were very progressive at the time. But if I go back to Danny, who was my HR director at the time, what had stayed with me, he was all about creating this adult-adult relationship with me and allowing me to have agency and autonomy over my work. And he coached me. And it was before coaching came into Australia. So he was ahead of his times in terms of how he would have one-to-one conversations. He did so much more asking and so much less telling. I heard agency and autonomy are and and is that it? Is that what effective leaders give today? Agency and autonomy. And I could hear in terms of the how you lit up when still when you talk about Danny as well, so clearly had a profound impact on your on your on your leadership as well as your current career at this point in time. Exactly. And I think at the time, I hadn't experienced anything like that. A leader who totally trusted me, um, recognized my strengths, and gave me the space to actually have that autonomy and work things out for myself. But he was like the safety net. So we would have regular conversations. And another thing he did was with our team, because we're quite an eclectic team, like of people of um in the HR team at the time. But what he did is he played to our strengths. And he said to us, How often do you want to have one-to-ones with me? So it wasn't a blanket everyone must meet weekly. It was, well, when my project was coming to a head, could we meet weekly? But otherwise, I'm I'm okay with every two weeks. Okay. But he was curious, he was interested in me as a person, but also me and the work I was doing, and helped set up the conditions for me to excel. So I think going back to your original question what is an effective leader, they have a uniqueness about them. And they help others identify their uniqueness so that they could love what they were doing. Yeah, that so they could see beyond clearly the talents. They could, they wanted to know the person and what the motivation was behind the person. And then the person your experience was, oh, this actually this person actually feels I feel cared and valued for. Exactly. And I remember I at the time I got married and I went on my honeymoon and I came back and he said to me, Oh gosh, I've missed you, you know, because I was out I think four four or five weeks. And he cared. Yeah. You know, and having someone who cared, but he also got the best out of me. So, you know, after he left that role and someone else took over, so he brought out the best in all of us, but the next leader who came in, she actually brought the worst out of us. Let's go

When Control Replaces Trust

Speaker 10:39

there. Why? Why? What's the difference? Was it was it all the opposites to what we've just discussed? It was style. Yeah. So whereas Danny was trusting, gave you space, gave you autonomy, and believed in and valued you, the opposite was close thinking, um, very controlling, micromanaging, didn't trust you, kept flip-flopping of decisions. Um, and so it was Do you think that's insecur Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to speak over you. I was gonna say, do you think that's insecurity in that in that space because of yeah, is that a power move or what what what do we call that in terms of leadership? Is that a power over move or insecurity or all of the above? Definitely, definitely it's power over controlling because underneath that is I'm not really comfortable with what's happening here, and I can't maybe not very self-aware and they're unconscious of what they're doing. So the way they lead is control everything. And I often describe work, there's levels of work. Yep. And if I if I describe it as if there's the bank teller, their work is very transactional, yeah. It's just the main task is done in a day. And in in organizations and and also in in levels of leadership, you want the ability for someone to be able to think out broader. Um, so if the bank teller reported to the team leader of the bank teller, you'd want them to be able to think out about, you know, one or one to three months. But then the team leader then reports to a branch manager who is able to think out a year. So you've got levels of roles in organizations and and can be overlaid in terms of schools, but then you've got the capability of people who do those roles. Yeah. And it doesn't always match the level of work. So if I go back to that leader who took over from Danny, her ability to make connections and see the bigger system was not there. So she dumbed down the role to suit her level of capability, not actually looking at what people in her team, the capability of her team. And that's what you get when people haven't got the awareness, are promoted into a role that may be beyond their capability at that time. So they dumb it down, control it. Yeah. Yeah. Or they get that's one aspect, or they give away their power and will go, oh, well, that's what the system's telling me to do. So I've just got to follow the orders and be compliant. Rather than what Danny did was he was sharing power. Yeah. And it takes a level of awareness and consciousness to be able to trust others. Is this a skill then, Annette, that can be essentially trained? So from that poor managing example that you gave, is is that a skill set that can be changed? Or is that a if we go back, if you go to the work of Carol Tweck, for example, with growth mindset, which uh you know the work of, can that can it actually change? Or if I'm thinking of colleagues who are going, I might be in this position at the moment, I feel challenged and I can relate to all of those things. Help, what what what does one do here? I

Building Self-Aware Leadership

Speaker 14:40

think for me, the most practical thing you could do is actually start to become aware. Yeah. What is am I what is it that I'm doing that's working? Yeah. And what is it that I'm doing that it's getting in the way of my effectiveness? So when, you know, you've probably heard the old analogy above the line and below the line behaviors. The second leader I described was below the line. Yeah, yep. Closed thinking, um, siloed teams. Yep. Then you get disengaged people. And so very much what happens unbelow the line is unconscious behaviors. Yeah. And then you get that and in some sectors we call that traditional ways of leading. Um, and we don't have to look very far in terms of world leaders and see what happened who's doing that. Well, that's worked. So if you see if this is work to go from point A to point B to where you know leaders that we're seeing crave power, uh that's a clearly uh model that's worked. Exactly. Exactly. So you can understand why people go down that pathway and what we're seeing. But what it doesn't land well. No, people rebel, you know, when they're too micromanaged or too controlled, yeah, and have no voice in that. Yeah. I'm seeing above-the-line behaviors is more about being conscious. Why do I lead the way I lead? Yeah. Who who have been the influences in my the way I lead? And start to be really conscious about that. You know, what is my practice? So Danny had this huge influence on me. I didn't realize until I did this exercise a few months ago when I was um part of this uh mastery, coaching mastery program, and I started to go, wow, I lead because of that. Yep. And, you know, that leads to the purpose of why am I doing it? And then how does that land in terms of practices? I have regular one-to-ones with people because that worked. Yeah. I do more asking and less telling, but allow others to have agency over and autonomy and control over what they're doing. Yeah. Um, so the more we can create that awareness of knowing ourselves. And I say knowing ourselves because we are not one self, we're not one personality. We have many different parts to us that get triggered in certain times. So, how do we actually know ourselves well? And and then the other aspect is how then do I relate in this system I'm operating in and what is happening in it at the better level? Yeah, yeah.

Finding Time Through Coaching

Speaker 17:45

I mean, so many levels that you've just unpacked there, Annette, in terms of going into the big another question is in terms of leadership, it it always an issue in terms of context. It feels like more so than ever, how do I fit everything in in the context of in the New South Wales system, the one hour, which is uh uh an agreement that cannot be changed, one hour per week at professional learning communications, etc. And that's a question I'm hearing as well. How do I fit everything in as a leader? What is there that's a big question there? How do I fit everything in? Or people listening to this is yes, how do I fit everything in? And what does that look and sound and feel like? Or are we going around and thinking around this in a it can in another way? Can we think about this in another way? I think so. I think and that's where coaching comes in, where you're um oh, what's the term it used to be used a few years ago? I can't even remember it's not coming to me about distributive leadership. Yeah. And that's where creating a coaching culture within your school where you're actually helping to delegate responsibility to more just you being the sole principal who has to be responsible for everything. So, and thinking that that one hour of professional development is the way I develop people. I think change happens through conversation. Yeah. Yeah. So what what is if we go to what is distributed leadership for that terminology, what does that what could that look and sound and feel like through putting in the umbrella of how can I lead as a coach? Yeah, and I think it it's about all leaders in your school, how do they be coach-like in all their conversations with their teachers? And being authentic too. And being authentic too, and caring about the people that you're leading, that they don't leave their life behind when they enter the school gate, that they are a human being and want to be valued. I think the shift from old style of leadership to our new world is that they want their leader to be a coach, not a boss. Yeah. So getting back to that one hour of professional development, it's not just one hour. You know, how do I utilize that time that's pu really effective? But there's all these other times that I can be developing people. Incidental or deliberate intention. That's right. So coaching isn't this formal thing that I only do in my PDP conversations. It's something that can be if you got five minutes, um, walking down the corridor, out in the playground. It just can be distilled down to three words. So what's happening for you now? You know, what how do you want it to be? What's your next small step? Yeah. Yeah. And that's what being coach like is. And layered on that is how do you be more solution focused? I think a lot of our conversations are very problem-oriented, but the solution isn't about understanding the problem further. It's about redirectoring it to what do you want instead? What would that look like if you had that? What might be your first small step that you might take towards that? So it becomes a way you have conversations. And this is applied not just directly to your staff. Is this a conversation piece for, for example, your community, parents, etc., who come? Because a lot of principals don't just get the um I'm going to have um make an appointment with you, um, Annette, to praise you on your performance. It's more I'm coming to you, Annette, because I've got an issue and you need to solve that for me. Exactly. So it it it's it can actually be a way of teaching as well that you're asking more, telling less in your classroom. But yes, particularly with parents, um you want to have a partnership with your parents. You don't want to be directing them of this is just the way we do it here. But it's how they have got a concern about this their their child. Yeah. So how do you work with them in an adult adult way to help resolve what they want? Yeah. Yeah. And that is the way you have conversations. Well, let's

Coaching Conversations With Staff Parents

Speaker 22:47

if we can be uh quoting Brene Brown here, we're going to be a little bit vulnerable in terms of doing a role play, colleagues who are listening in. We're going to look at a role play of what that could actually sound like. It's nice to say these things, but let's see if we can get into the nitty-gritty if if um and so I'm putting myself there. If you can coach me in today's podcast, Annette, of what does that potentially? So we'll probably do a little bit of a role play on what does that so you I'll hand over to you, coach, and we can see if we can play along. And I'm sure our listeners tuning in may find this interesting.

Live Solution-Focused Coaching Demo

Speaker 23:29

Excellent. And so let me qualify. It's real play, not roleplay, because this is going to be a real topic for you. Yeah, yeah. Um, so we'll probably go for about eight minutes, something like that. Um, so what I would like listeners to do is notice the questions I'm asking and and why would that be considered coach-like in the way that you know um I'm leading. Yeah. Basically, yeah, but I'm leading you in a coach-like way. Okay. Um, so we've got about eight minutes now, Drew. Yeah. What are your best hopes from our conversation right now? Look, uh, there's a lot on, right? I'm uh I've got a lot of things. If I'm doing my role play, I'm a I'm a principal, which would be I'm an educational leader, and I have things in my strategic direction as I'm looking at halfway through the year, and I've got how would I describe some things? I'm not seeing what I'm liking at the moment. I'm trying to bump students or my my percentage of growth isn't where I thought it would be, particularly for maths. Um, but I'm just not seeing, I know we put a lot of effort into professional learning and efforts at the start of the year. I'm just maybe I'm being impatient, I'm not sure, but this I'm feeling the pressure that the uh the students aren't moving, and I'm a bit stuck in terms of I I know my workforce, I'm I know my staff uh if I I tell them one more way to to help improve students' maths, I think they get that I I'm I'm pretty passionate about improving students' mathematics concepts. So help me, coach, what can we do here? Sure. Awesome. So given we've only got about seven minutes left now, what are you hoping for in term from this conversation around this topic of growth for maths concepts in your students? What what what would tell you this was a useful conversation around that? Well, I'm just looking at the pre-data so far that we've done and what would success look like? I'd like to see more students, you know, showing that demonstrate that they clearly understand in in stage one. I'm not seeing the fundamentals being established as well as we would like there. And I'm not seeing the growth that we have, and I know this is a time factor, and I know my school plan is four years, but I'm we put a lot of effort in a net in terms of uh this work, and it's not feeling like things are moving as they should should. So students understanding basic uh number concepts and our stage three students really aren't understanding pattern recognition as well. So I'm just thinking around what is the best concept. I'm thinking potentially I could bring that to them, but I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I want to be also show them that this is the challenge that I'm feeling as well with with growth and development and basic understanding of maths because that is essentially, you know, I'll go back to my why, why do students come to school? It's to learn how to read and it's learn learning how to do uh add up and use mathematics, because that's a real world thing, right? Yeah, for sure. So um what difference would it make if these students understood these maths fundamentals? What difference would that make? Uh well, um as I've alluded to, if they don't have that basic understanding is my um in the particularly in the early years, the that foundation is almost built on sand, and then as the years progress, then that that that recall and understanding of of basic number is going to be harder for students as they progress through. And my biggest fear is that they be disengaged with learning. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so these are the the basic fundamentals, building blocks of of what these students need in terms of their understanding. Yeah, and the other fear absolutely is going into high school. It's a um it's a different space for our primary students, and I want to ensure maybe there's some pride here as a as a school, we want to ensure that our students are ready for high school in that transition. So my why is very hopefully coming across as being very centered in terms of what my there's a bigger reason for yeah, that why, absolutely. So I'm wondering for this conversation if we focus on the earlier the younger years, so would you say stage one? Yeah. Yep, stage one. Yeah. How would you know in say a year's time that you'd made an impact on this? That this stage one had a higher percentage of understanding maths fundamentals. What would you be noticing? I'd be noticing in terms of just the observation of engagement. I'd be noticing the um whether we like that or not is using assessment data. And that is a one point I understand of reference, but it's a fairly important. Um and what would be in that assessment data? What would you be noticing saying, oh, we've moved this? Yeah, so in terms of uh cross-checking against our um against our syllabus to ensure that students are meeting those those fundamentals and making sure that they're meeting those stage one outcomes. And obviously stage one ends in year in year two for stage one, so yes. And the other um model is that we have in our system where we have a uh a check-in model where we can see where students have that. It it's what the system actually has, where it's a check-in model to see where students are at. So I guess in terms of those data sets, I'd be seeing where they are with their check-in, I'd be seeing where the engagement is, and I'm also curious to see how I can give more um you can tell I'm pretty passionate about mathematics, so how can I embed that into uh in a natural way for my staff to have that same enthusiasm that I have? So how would you notice that your staff has the enthusiasm like you? Well, you know, through observation, through looking through uh class staff room, yes, but that's not a form, but it could be uh through walking through classrooms myself to see what that looks and sounds and feels like. Asking students, for example, when I do walk and talks, is to look at and see what students are learning and explain what and why they're learning, how they're learning and how they're getting to those particular concepts. So I guess in terms of my, you know, and an example of that could could be asking better questions to the students, but ensuring that I can feed that not as a judgment piece on my staff as well. So that I'm I'm in that balancing act. I'm sharing this is what I found through my walk and talks and discussions. And the next step as leaders as we challenge is is the noticing and wonderings of that thinking about how okay, Johnny's saying he can't doesn't know how to go when he's stuck. So how can I give Johnny or enable the teacher to have those to allow Johnny to know he can go to particular parts of the where can he get support so he can he can acquire the knowledge he he needs to overcome his understanding of mathematics or basic number concepts or addition and subtraction or whatever the problem is in mathematics? Hope I'm making sense. Yes. So if we circle back to observation of engagement and you're walking past your teacher's classroom, how would you notice that was happening? Well, that's probably the trickiest part because every classroom, every school is unique in their particular concept. And to walk past and make a judgment call is quite un you know, unfair, I fundamentally feel, because you know, there could be whatever context, classrooms are very dynamic places, so it's not fair to be making a judgment call on if it's loud, if it's quiet, if you know kids are uh whatever the con whatever's occurring at that point in time, the thinking I have is to know the students is through that observation of walk and talks, but also the ensuring my staff know those questions of knowing where their students are at at that point in time. And I can say from an example that teachers or good teachers and own know this, they know where their students are. I know that that they know where their students are. So we're probably sharing the same concerns, it's just a matter of the in terms of going back to the problem, we're not it on the on the on the data that I'm seeing, and we all have different data sets, is I'm not seeing the growth. Maybe I'm being impatient, I'm not sure, but that's what I'm not on seeing, and I'd like that to shift because I talked about the why, with a balancing act of ensuring that I don't um uh I guess it's a it's the always a tightrope, isn't it, to ensure that my staff are not um resenting me for my drive and passion in that space. So what would your staff be noticing about you in terms of the shift in maths fundamentals? How would they notice you're supportive of what they're trying to achieve? Well, that's a good reflective question, and it's something that I could reflect upon as a leader, and I like that how you've shifted that. So, yes, I could think of okay, is the problem with the teacher? Because I think as as a first thing as a through my readings, it's we don't we should look at ourselves as a leader to say, well, what can I do? Can I resource more? Potentially, yes. Could I allocate well time is also as I said the issue. So, how can I allocate strategic timing so that um allocation towards meeting that target is actually met without problem? So I'm thinking of asking further questions of a as a leader to say, I'm not here to judge you. We're sharing the same problem here. So how can I, as a leader, support you to reach the potential that we have aimed for? So it's a partnership of the And what difference would that make to teachers if they knew that you were partnering with them around this change? I think they would feel less judged by me. Okay subliminally, and I'm trying to hide that as a leader at the moment, but I feel judged as a system as a leader based on our results as a whole school. And that's probably for our listeners in this role play, maybe something you could relate to as well. So yeah, that's and I that's where my thinking after our conversation is where my thinking and focus would be rather than it's um it's easy to judge in terms of reflecting on this conversation, isn't it? Yes, definitely. I'm I'm I'm impressed with your insight around that. So I'm wondering the last question I want to ask around this preferred future that you're wanting in a year's time. You talked about strategic timing and having allocation. What would that look like if you'd achieved that? Well, I mean, it'd be paradise in terms of the world of of of what I would like in terms of the quality quality world where students would be engaged, we'd be well above state average with all of our mathematic concepts. Students would be and families would be well engaged with mathematics and they could see the relevance. Uh, we'd be just we'd be a beacon school for mathematics, uh, which would be quite inspiring. And I'm, you know, that's my passion in this space. And I'm just hopeful that we can get to that space. So that would be the if you said what could what would I like, that would be the that would be the goal. Yeah. And and in terms of the allocate timing allocation, have you got some thoughts around how you'll you'll put that into place where that they've got the time to focus on this? Yeah, that's always a challenge as a leader. And that's my I guess in terms of um if we think about the the covey quadrant, which I know many of our leaders would be understanding, is what is urgent and most important in in the space. So it's a good reset to say, well, what is my what is the most important aspect? And I go back to the why of why do students go to school is to read and to learn how to you and learn how to incorporate mathematics, which is the two key principles that are never should be never going away in a school context. Okay. So where are you now? If that's a 10 out of 10, what you've described in terms of you'd notice this engagement improvement, um, it's coming out in your data, um, around the links to the syllabus that have been, you know, made progress on. Um, there's an enthusiasm there as you walk past classrooms, as you're talking to students, you're noticing that enthusiasm, you're crystal clear on where students are at in terms of their understanding of math's fundamentals, and there's been allocation, timing allocation for teachers to focus on. That's a 10 out of 10. Where are you today on that? One being there's no evidence of any of that, but I'm I'm sure there's probably progress being made. Yeah. Where would you put yourself? Yeah, that's hence the conversation. I think we're approximately, you know, we're putting that effort in, but the results aren't showing at this point in time. I'd say then in terms of that space, probably being giving myself myself or where we're at as a six out of ten. So there's room for room for improvement. We're not failing, but we uh because we put things in place, but I want to make sure that our team, and I'm and I'd be honest, I have seen things that have moved, so it's not all doom and gloom, but there are things that I guess in terms of the um expectations is the word where where we could be with a 10 out of 10. Awesome. So we're going to uh unpack this in a bit of a different way, because most people then would go straight to what's missing between the six and the ten. But we're gonna spend some time unpacking the six. Okay. How come you're that high? What are the things that have already worked in the focus on maths fundamentals? Well, okay. Really? Well, we've done our looking at our programs, we're making sure we've got consistency across that. That's the paper work space, we've done observations of our work, we've done the walk and talks incorporating them. We've um we've got data walls to show where students are at with their with their growth from assessments to difference through if different forms of um practice. We've also um we've also audited out all of our um all of our mathematic resources from kindergarten through to which is a fair amount. We've also had uh put putting numeracy into conversations through our newsletters and so forth. So we are really and we've also say the word experimented, but we um are deliberate with our intention of putting mathematics in the first part of the day, because the research shows that that could be that is prime time for learning and sometimes can be the second cousin to our our dear friends in the English um and reading section. So that's our I guess there's some things and of obvious obviously there's work with the curriculum that we've done in terms of there's been a change of curriculum and how we are really all of our staff understanding that. So So you've done a lot of the foundational work. If you were to see some signs of progress at a seven, yeah at only one point up the scale, what would you be hoping to start noticing that would tell you we're on track? Be some signs. Uh there'd be signs that uh there's consistency in practice across our school in terms of that. Now that also what I mean by that is that when we do our learning walks and talks, that students are across our whole school saying similar things in terms of where to go, how to solve problems themselves. Because at the end of the day, we want our students to ensure they are independent learners of how to solve mathematic problems. So what I'd be looking for is consistency and we are seeing that. Okay. But we c it's an old adage of even better if. Yeah. So how would students notice this consistency? Well, the ideal world is they know that they're I guess fundamentally that we're here as a school and our staff to support them in their learning, and it gets real when there's the struggle. So how to overcome that struggle with um maths? Because maths has been for and it's generational, maths has been an issue or could be an issue has been issues because of bad experience that that uh the parent has had through their schooling. And then and then those values or those subconscious or I'm not good at maths has has almost crept through generational. So I've heard Um that is a it's almost what we're talking about is generational change in terms of our thinking around mathematics and and and the stories people tell themselves about certain things. Because it's very black and white. Um you're either right or you're wrong. And if you get things wrong after a while, repeatedly, I think there's a form of rejection there. Yeah. And then there's a sense of identity regarding your ability, and that's what we want to avoid in the in the space. So can or yeah. Well I'm just conscious of how long we've gone in terms of this conversation when it and it's been a wonderful example of you know you getting clearer and clearer. What might be your next small step in the next 48 hours? What might kick start you towards the seven? I think it's just the sharing within the um honestly where we're at, but also making sure that I'm not uh, as you can tell, there's a leader is ensuring that my staff know that we have an expectation. We're just not there yet at the moment. So the thinking in terms of initial is just having the conversation with and sharing without being um it's a balancing tightroping act of saying we're not where we are at and bringing them into the conversation is my initial thinking. So yeah. And so when might you do that? Like how will you bring them into conversation? So the so it would be through our our as I said, we have our one hour of professional learning. Okay. And just saying just a snapshot of where we're at, praising the work, but showing these are the initial results that we're seeing at this point in time. And I guess not opening it up for a forum of how to, but just saying these are the things and this is the uh real frustration that I'm feeling at the moment, so I can bring them in without them feeling devalued or under overwhelmed by um our lack of growth at this point in time. So it's a it's uh it's been really good in terms of reflecting, and I'd like to see how I guess the coaching conversation like we've had is to is another possibility as well as I'm thinking this through as well. Okay, yeah. Okay. So modeling modeling what we've done in terms of so you you know, reflecting on that, what I just said is if you open up for um if you open up to a whole forum uh you'll be don't you'll be getting all different sorts of answers. So is that the construct of how to actually to do that or not? So that's the that's that's we go back to leadership, that is leadership, right? It's to decide when and how to put that into the forum. Yes. And how we can all share the same vision together. Awesome. So uh

Debrief And Coaching Principles

Speaker 47:11

just just to put a full stop on the coaching, what was useful from that conversation? Yeah, good, yeah. Well, thanks for the role play and thank you for those uh listening. And I hope you did relate to there's some relatable things that we did discuss. I like the how you you I like the fact that you didn't jump in. I liked how you allowed me to think through the thoughts that was really coming through because if you heard Annette deliberately intensively, she could have jumped in multiple times. So you deliberately were and that's a skill in itself to not because I'm sure you you would have had ample amount of things to help me fix that, but you allowed me through that process of thinking that through, and you let me think that through, and you meant let me think that it's not all doom and gloom. We are, and it made me think it's not all doom and gloom, even though I was looking at a statistic and uh percentage as we do as leaders. Yes. So you allowed me to do the reflective thinking, and I liked I'm not sure if it was a deliberate intent of the where we what mark you would give and what where would you and you could give me the vision as well. So the coaching conversation allowed me to freedom to think that through outward thoughts, which are inward thoughts, but outward thoughts help without judgment and without without you fixing the problem for me. Exactly. Yeah. So there's principles that not as in role principle, yeah, but as in what is underneath this. Yeah. So one of the principles is around you are the expert in your world. Yep. I'm just a guide on the side, yeah. Helping you get clarity of what you want. Um, the other is I have a beginner's mind. So I'm not listening to you like that I'm the expert of this topic. Yeah, you're the expert. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then the other is around um there's always progress that's been made. How do we magnify that progress? So that's why I use the scale. Yeah. Yeah. But I spent most of that conversation was around what are you aiming for? What does that look like in concrete detail? So were there a few times you gave me a uh there'll be more engagement, or um, I'll observe engage. So what would that look like if you noticed that? Yeah. Yeah. So we ground it and make it as concrete as possible. Because so much time gets in every different work context of trying to unpack the root cause of the problem and the solution's not going to be there. The solution is going to be there. How come we're a six? Where we've seen spikes and p and students, you know, some classrooms have made more progress than others. How come? Yeah. What was it in that classroom that made the progress? I could have gone a lot of places. Yeah. You know, that I was conscious of of the time as well. And yeah. And so it was a it was a great reflective. So if in terms of just putting that into reality, is that a checkpoint like how you were led as well, and how how, you know, go back to that question of how do I fit everything in? Yeah, is that what people could learn through the work of, you know, through your work and through your coaching courses that at that time, and I've myself, you know, well researched, but just that colleagues listening, you could hear the thinking pattern through without judgment. And that is a it's such a it's an easy thing to say, but the practice of doing is the is is the doing of the work and seeing where and I loved how at the end you could see what is that, what could that look like. So you gave the vision and it gave that reflective, and it's not all doom and gloom. No, exactly. Yeah. And how are you feeling at the end of that conversation? Yeah. I can hear your motivation to keep going on this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what you leave people with. And our conversation went a bit longer than you need it to be. It can be just your two-minute conversation. You help people go back to what's worked. What can we build on? That's the main aim of coaching is to help if people get unstuck, help people. You're responsible for that. I can't shadow you every part of your day to go, come on, be more engaged or whatever, um, around these maths fundamentals. But it's how do you empower people to take responsibility? And in terms of from a leader's perspective, listening, going, yeah, that's great, but I don't generally have a spare 15 minutes. Or when you think about it, maybe you could or should or try, because that is actually, I mean, in terms of the gift of coaching and that conversation can lead to a lot of external motivation and intrinsic motivation to lead further and reflect upon that. So there's two ways to look at that, isn't there, in terms of your availability and making sure how you can support support colleagues through coaching. Yeah, and I think I think if we reframe it to it's just the way you have conversations. Yeah. Rather than I'm going to do coaching. Yeah. It's just we do more asking and less telling. Yeah. You know, even down to the essence of what it is. And that goes back to the Danny conversation. That's what he was doing. Yeah. It gave me autonomy. It empowered me to take responsibility. And I stepped up and took responsibility because of just the way he had conversations with me. So it doesn't necessarily only it's one-to-one, but it can be in those one hour professional development. Where are we now? We said we wanted to be here. What progress have we made? What's the next step we're going to take? So it can be distilled down to really short conversations as well. Or even having the practicing of the conversation during the one hour. Imagine then the power of that uh multiplying itself from that into how do we actually we're going to practice within the time frame. Yes. But this can go beyond the one hour. So that's another thought process that's just think dripping that through. Definitely. In that one hour could be the AP's work with their team of teachers to go, where are we now? What seem what are you noticing that's working? Yeah. Yeah. You know, so it's sharing that progress. Yeah. Really important. Look, I love our conversations. It's uh always a pleasure. Um, and I hope listeners, you've got something from our conversation today. It's been we've gone through the big topics, haven't we? Reflecting now, we've gone through what is leadership, what is an effective to be a leader today, how do I fit everything in? How do I lead as a coach? And and that example of our role play today. I'm just reflecting on all the things we've covered in terms of of leadership, and and you can hear the passion and the the real experience that Annette brings in our rich conversation today. Imagine having two days and working that through, and that's in store for us today, Annette. We

Training Options And Dates

Speaker 55:14

have some coaching uh courses coming up this year. Could you just share what options we have through the association? When what dates? So put these in your we are at one takeaway, put something in your diary now. When when are these courses and where and so we've got the face-to-face workshop happening here at Ultimo in the um PPA office? Yep. So that's in July, um, late July. Yep. Um, and so yeah, that's an opportunity for Sydney-based people or others who want to come in. You've been inspired by this, you can travel, as you know, to to our beautiful to our beautiful office and have this rich conversation. Absolutely. And there's another offering as well in August. And then in August for those people in regional areas, we we we're doing it online or in Western Sydney or play people who can't make those dates in July. Uh, there's an online version of the programme, and that goes over four three and a half hour modules. Um, and that's going to be in August. So all these dates can be in the show notes and links to register. Absolutely, and we look forward to you putting that into your diary. We hope we you've got a lot. I've got a lot out of our coaching conversation. Always a pleasure to have you, Annette. Thank you again for your time. Thank you so much, Drew, and um hopefully you can take your next step actions around what I coached you on. Well, we can come back to that as well. Thank you again. Thanks. What

Final Takeaway And Register

Speaker 56:52

a conversation. I hope that one landed for you because it really did for me. We covered a lot of ground today, what leadership actually is right now, what it genuinely takes to be effective, how to make time for it all, and what it really looks like to lead as a coach. And that live coaching moment at the end, that's the part I think you'll keep coming back to. What I love about Annette is the experience she brings, but also how honest she is. It's not all doom and gloom, there is a way through, and it starts with some pretty simple shifts in how you show up. So here's your one takeaway. Put something in your diary today. What you just heard me experience, that's solution-focused coaching, is exactly what Annette teaches in her foundations program running through the association this year. One principal who's already done it is John O'Combs from Artamon Public School. He called it the most practical coaching training of his career. That's a pretty good endorsement. There are two ways to get involved. If you're in or near Sydney, there's a two-day workshop at the New South Wales Primary Principal's Association office in Ultimo on Tuesday the 28th and Wednesday the 29th of July. If getting to Sydney isn't easy, or two full days just doesn't work right now, there's an online version running across four mornings in August. The 11th, 13th, 18th, and 20th. From 9am to 12.30pm each day. Both options include follow-up coaching check-ins to help it really stick. The links for both are in the show notes. Go there now, pick your date, and register while it's right in front of you. Don't just listen and move on. Take that next step. Thanks so much for being here, and we'll see you next time.