Beyond Advice: How Human-Centered Leadership Transforms Schools

What happens when educational leaders face back-to-back crises? How do they support traumatised communities while managing their own wellbeing? Leadership coach Annette Gray takes us deep into these questions, drawing from her powerful work with school principals following the devastating Black Summer bushfires.

The principals Annette coached were carrying an extraordinary burden—not just rebuilding physically destroyed schools, but becoming the emotional anchors for entire communities. "The principal was holding everything together and they were just incredibly exhausted," she shares. One leader, facing both bushfires and floods, confessed he simply couldn't make any more decisions. The emotional toll was palpable.

This experience illuminates a critical leadership challenge: how to navigate overwhelming circumstances while supporting others. Annette's approach focuses on creating space for leaders to be heard without judgment. Rather than dispensing advice, she guides them to discover their own solutions—a coaching mindset that transforms conversations.

The distinction between coaching and advice-giving emerges as crucial for all educational leaders. When Annette's daughter, a teacher struggling with challenging classroom behaviours, encountered leaders who bombarded her with strategies she'd already tried, the approach felt dismissive rather than supportive. "Coach-like conversations" instead begin with genuine curiosity: "What do you want from this conversation? What would make a difference?"

For busy principals, Annette offers immediate, practical suggestions. Being truly present matters more than availability—"If now's not a good time, when would be?" Simple acknowledgments like this demonstrate that you value the conversation enough to give it proper attention.

Beyond individual interactions, Annette advocates for group coaching, where leaders learn from each other's experiences and develop complementary leadership styles. This collaborative approach recognises that no single leader possesses all necessary competencies—especially important in today's complex educational landscape.

Self-awareness emerges as the fundamental leadership skill. Understanding your triggers, managing your responses, and creating boundaries around difficult conversations creates the foundation for effective leadership. As Annette puts it: "How do I bring my best self, best version of me, to this conversation?"

Ready to transform your leadership conversations? Connect with Annette at annettegray.com.au or explore her YouTube channel for more insights into creating human-centred, inclusive school cultures through the power of coaching.

Links and References:

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https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Annette Gray
• 8:53 Leadership During the Black Summer Bushfires
• 15:50 Coach-Like Conversations in Schools
• 25:39 Self-Awareness: The Key Leadership Skill
• 35:36 Group Coaching and Complementary Leadership
• 48:01 Book Recommendations and Personal Practices
• 57:57 Final Advice and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Drew J: 0:00

Welcome back to Professional Learning's, the New South Wales PPA Educational Leadership Podcast. It's great to have your company. This podcast aligns to the values of the New South Wales Primary Principals Association. That is, the values of principal wellbeing, principals as lead learners, as well as supporting principals to lead school operations. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe for further updates. Now let's get into today's latest episode.

Drew J: 0:33

I'm honoured to speak with someone whose life work is helping leaders navigate not only everyday challenges, but also some of the toughest moments imaginable. My guest today is Annette Gray, leadership coach, facilitator and mentor, whose mission is to empower leaders to transform conversations and create more human, centered and inclusive cultures. From starting as a high school teacher to leading complex culture changes projects across industries, annette insights resonates deeply with anyone leading people through change and challenge. And for those of us in education, annette's work supporting educational leaders in the recovery phase after the devastating Black Summer bushfires of 2019 and 20 is a powerful example of how coaching and leadership conversations can be a lifeline in times of crisis. With that, annette, a welcome to our podcast. Great to have you with us.

Annette Gray: 1:30

Thank you so much, Drew. I look forward to the conversation with you today.

Drew J: 1:36

Yeah, as am I, and let's well, let's start. For the audience who may not know you, let's start at the beginning. You grew up in Sydney, spent some time, as I've, done my research in the Philippines as a child and eventually found yourself teaching in high schools. How did those early experiences shape your love for learning, teaching and, ultimately, coaching Annette?

Annette Gray: 2:04

I think you know when I reflected on it you know it's interesting I grew up with four brothers and, yes, we did live in the Philippines for five years because my dad worked for Qantas. And what we always talk about at any of the family events you know funerals, birthdays, whatever is what a profound impact our time in the Philippines had. So I was early years of schooling that I started my schooling in the Philippines and then only went. I was seven when I came back. So you know it was very formative years. But what it opened up for me is this acceptance of diversity and inclusion, and that is my passion now. How do we create workplaces, schools that are inclusive, human-centred and diverse and honouring the difference? And that stuck with me.

Annette Gray: 3:05

And I think the other thing that stuck with me in my childhood when I reflect on it, my mom wanted to be a teacher but circumstances didn't allow her to go into teaching. But she was a Sunday school teacher. And then, when I look at my family, that so much influence of teaching is in my family my daughter's a teacher. I was a teacher, I still teach adults. Three nieces are teachers. Like all from my brothers and my family, we've influenced people to go into education. My two sister-in-laws are teachers and my five closest friends I had from Teachers College, so it's such a strong influence about this love of learning and continuing to grow and that's what I try and work with leaders on. There needs to be this openness to change, to learn to navigate. You know we are now in ambiguous times, so this is where being open to look at things differently, ai is having such a big impact. So that's a long answer to you know the influences from the past.

Drew J: 4:22

Oh well, it gives us a really great insight into your background of who Annette Gray is, and also the alignment, as you've clearly outlined, the alignment with educators as well. All of the people in your closest circle are educators. So, education what I'm hearing really resonates for you and you can see the power of education and the impact of education. And if we move into talking about strong leadership in the work that you're leading, I want to talk about or, if we can, about strong leadership and meaningful conversations, which were absolutely they were really crucial in the 2019-2020 bushfires here in Australia, and that is reflecting nearly five years ago now, or even longer five, six years ago and you supported educational leaders after the fires, during the recovery phase. Annette, could you share what you witnessed in terms of the emotional and the professional toll that it took on leaders and communities?

Annette Gray: 5:29

Yeah, sure, and let me sort of preface it with when it happened. So you know, 2019-20 were the bushfires and a lot of schools got impacted in rural and remote areas and there was a wonderful project that I think it was Cathy Powson in the department actually led, which was the response how are we going to support these schools who have been really impacted and their communities have been impacted in big ways? So this was sort of 18 months later and what they were noticing and Cathy brought me in to do this work with two of my other executive coaches that work with me to support 50 schools that were impacted in a traumatic way during the bushfires in a traumatic way, you know, during the bushfires and so what we found their response, these principles that we worked with and basically what we did. It was a wellbeing sort of coaching project and so we helped those principles have a sounding board, someone neutral that wasn't in the department, to actually vent, download, go.

Annette Gray: 6:49

I'm actually exhausted. I've had 18 months of supporting my community and it ended up. The principals were the ones that supported the community broader than the school, the community broader than the school. And then the other aspect is they had to rebuild physically their schools that were burnt down, so the principal was holding everything together and they were just incredibly exhausted. So we were really focused on their wellbeing and helping them understand what does fully flourishing look like for a leader, and we use the Global Leadership Wellbeing Survey, which is a beautiful survey that marries leadership and wellbeing, so that people can it's a self-assessment so they can understand where am I thriving and where needs some attention. So this is what this coaching was about was looking at you know, where have I neglected, given the impact of leading the support in the school and outside of the school. What have I neglected in my own wellbeing? And they could talk really openly and honestly because it was with someone external to the department. Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Drew J: 9:34

Yeah, yeah, I heard exhaustion. What were the other biggest challenges leaders faced in their communities you mentioned? Obviously they had to support their staff. They had to rebuild a community literally in front of them and bring the team. That alone is so many challenges. Were there any other challenges that even caught you off guard?

Annette Gray: 10:09

there any other challenges that even caught you off guard. One principle that I recall was sharing it was all the decision-making that had to be made, and it got to the point of rebuilding physically the school. And so they had builders asking them questions all the time, the project manager asking them questions all the time, and it's like they just felt bombarded with I haven't got the energy to make any more decisions. Can someone take that part away from me, because I'm just getting here each day? And this particular principal when I was coaching him, floods happened, so he had the double whammy of the impact of the fires and the floods and he said I just need some support for someone to just take this piece away from me, so I can focus on the well-being of my teachers, my team.

Drew J: 11:10

And in your role what? As a coach, as an expert coach, what advice could you give to that scenario? For that principal, who is obviously in that scenario, that would be hard for you as well, or the executive team that you were leading, to give advice. Was there any advice, or is that a journey that they have to discover themselves?

Annette Gray: 11:38

Generally as a coach, that's our last port of call is giving advice. It's more about what is it you want? What would make this better? How would you know you're making progress and you're feeling like you're in a better place? What would that look like? Rather than jumping straight in and telling them, because they're the experts in their world, they know what's going to work in their context. So you end up being more a guide on the side rather than sage on the stage.

Annette Gray: 12:11

I've got an example lots of examples recently where I've reached out for a bit of business coaching and what I've noticed every single one has gone. This is what you need to do, rather than what have you tried? What's worked already, you knowing your business, what's work that we can build upon, that you know, and honoring all the effort I've made, rather than just going into great advice giving and I think that's what gets people's backs up when you have no understanding their contest and go. What you should do is X, y, z.

Annette Gray: 12:52

So our role wasn't about telling people what to do, because they know what's best for them, but it's bringing it out of them. And it's more asking, less telling, bringing it out of them. And it's more asking, less telling and they appreciated that because they actually appreciated being noticed for what they had tried, what had worked, the amazing support that they gave the community, because there was a lot of trauma in the community. You know now, parents or family members were taking their lives. So the principle was in the firing line for that of like, how am I going to support you know that when I'm absolutely drained back into a better place in terms of their own wellbeing and who are in their circle of influence that can actually support them, when they're trying to support everyone else, Wow, wow.

Drew J: 13:58

So many powerful ways in which we could go in this conversation. I guess how did you see that play out after the fires and that? Were there, for example, any conversations that help people heal and build trust or regain hope?

Annette Gray: 14:15

I think what was most beneficial is get the conversation right. So when someone is sharing their struggles or what they're not coping with, don't judge it, just be there. And sometimes it's just about listening and just about helping them work out what's going to be best for them. So I heard amazing stories of principals doing this so well with their staff and they didn't realize that. So we were holding up the mirror to you know, this is really working, what you're doing, so how can you create more of that?

Drew J: 15:02

Yeah. So if we move into that space of the lessons for educational leaders I heard many educational leaders that they're listening to our conversation. They might feel still the effects of those fires or other crises, like the pandemic, floods or community trauma or other matters. For leaders navigating those challenges, how can adopting a coach-like approach help them to support their staff and communities?

Annette Gray: 15:38

Work, with people sitting down with them for an hour or so. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about all the incidental conversations of someone like I have a daughter who's a teacher and she'll share with me the challenges that she has at the moment and the behavior challenges. She has a year, one class and the behavior challenges that are just so extreme. If I was her leader at school, her AP or principal, hear it out, not go into immediately go. Oh well, you need to do this Because she had an experience of that. She worked in London for a year and she had an experience of again, a really tricky cohort and both examples were children that were impacted from COVID and they didn't have preschool years, they didn't socialize with other children, so this was impacting their behavior. But the way that leaders in London dealt with it was just went. Here are all the strategies that you need to apply and she's going well. I tried that, I've tried that, I tried that and I also tried that. So it wasn't honoring. She's a damn good teacher, she's damn good at behavior management. But they came in advice giving. So coach-like is about finding out what is working with and what they want. So I use this model solution focus and it's a great way to coach and navigate to.

Annette Gray: 17:28

So what do you want from this conversation, drew? What would be your best hopes from us talking now? Yeah, and then what difference would that make if you're able to do that? So for my daughter? I have got eight different behavior issues in my class. There's a lot of ADHD there's, you know, there's on the spectrum. Like I need support in how do I manage this group of children when I'm exhausted and I don't know what to try. I've tried this, but I really want support from you to how do I navigate this class. I tend to do that for her at home, but her and her immediate super AP is wonderful at this and is being coached, like here, but didn't happen in London. So I got the calls from London around. They're giving me a hard time because I'm not keeping my book work really neat. Keeping my book work really neat and it seemed really punitive what the focus was on book work rather than she's struggling with managing all these behavior issues. So I think it's allowing people to be open and honest.

Annette Gray: 18:50

If here's what's going on for me, can you partner with me to work out what I need to do, but you don't need to be the expert. I can actually go away and do it because you can't shadow me. But help me work through it. Help me look at what I'm aiming for here. What would be good enough and have I had any instances of that already?

Annette Gray: 19:14

So we're not delving into why the behavior issues. We're delving into what can you do about it, yeah, and what would work in your classroom to be able to do it. And so if all you know and the schools who do this really well, who have created a coaching culture, that have conversations like this all the time, these incidental quick, I've only got five minutes, but gosh, that lesson was so hard and I don't know how to get myself back up, to get back in there If they can have those incidental conversations with their leader or even a buddy, because buddies work as well to support them. I just need to download of what's going on here. So I've rambled a bit in terms of the answer to the question no.

Drew J: 20:06

No, it's really intriguing to listen to in terms of that mindset and I didn't want to interject because of the people curious to say, for example, what would a busy principal what's one small change I'm thinking they could make tomorrow that might help their team feel more supported in that?

Annette Gray: 20:30

I think the key thing is being present. So if now's not a good time, when would be? Yeah, so that I really want to focus on what you're saying. But I've got these other five things I'm trying to juggle at the moment. So when can we reconnect? And I really want to hear what's happening for you and let's make that time, whether it's after school, you know, for 10 minutes after school or whatever.

Annette Gray: 21:03

So, being mindful in the moment, are you able to be present enough, if not reschedule for another time? I think just that, so you can be there and listen really well. And we're not always in that space. I'm not always in that space as a coach and we can't be, we can't be that active listener and showing empathy 100% of the time. So we have to sort of get ready to go into that conversation. But that can still happen. Walking down I'm going on playground duty walking down five-minute conversation as I get to my playground. That can still work. So that's one thing. The second is listen to the feedback that you're hearing from people, because generally, even if it's the one that most complains, they want something to be different. So how do you help them get clarity around what they want to be different so they can be in the driver's seat of helping move that forward rather than just be the complainer of. You have to sort this out.

Drew J: 22:14

Yeah, everyone wants to be heard and the skill of being a leader is ensuring that everyone is feeling they're heard. Really good, practical. That's a very practical, easy. I want to pay attention. But can we do this at a certain particular time so that you're showing that the conversation is important enough to make sure that you have that time, so it's acknowledging that. So that's a really nice tip. So you're not actually you're not diverting it, but you're actually putting a strategy in place so you're not constantly balancing all of these different and you think about how many conversations a leader or principal would have in a day and if they're not fully present, then it could spiral completely in another way if the responder doesn't feel heard.

Annette Gray: 23:02

Exactly and how do I bring my best self, best version of me, to this conversation? And it would work with parents as well. You know that you get the drop-in parent to have you got five minutes, to have you got five minutes. Sometimes we have to put some boundaries around. Actually, I'm not in the best place to have this conversation.

Annette Gray: 23:28

I love this analogy, drew. It's called how do we meet at the gate? So it's relationships are like a paddock You're on one side, I'm on the other, like our screen. So the gate is where our screens meet. So I'm responsible for my paddock, you're responsible for your paddock, and we only can ask people to meet at the gate. If I dive through the gate and try and get you to have my view of the world, I'm bringing you into my side of the paddock. So how do we help others? We have all the difficult team members who will drive through the gate and go. You need to look after this. You need to do something better about this. Actually, no, how do we keep the boundaries there around? Well, what is it you want? What would make a difference here? I've heard this a few times, so I really want to be supportive of what you want. So what would you see is required in this situation?

Drew J: 24:41

Yeah, yeah, absolutely no-transcript.

Annette Gray: 25:09

I think what I've noticed over the years and more and more is being talked about in the theory around leadership and leadership development is that self-awareness is the key skill of a leader and self-leadership. So that means there are a number of qualities that enable us to be a really good leader and unfortunately we haven't got great world leaders who are modeling this, world leaders who are modeling this. But I will mention Jacinda Ardern. Her latest book, a Different Kind of Power, is a wonderful memoir of what we're aiming for now in terms of the leadership qualities. She had kindness as the leadership quality that she wanted to always instill in her time as Prime Minister and if you think back, she had three major events in her first year of being Prime Minister. She had the Muslim massacre in the mosque, she had COVID and then there was some I can't remember the third, oh, the volcano and all the tourists that were stuck on it. So three pretty major events and she said I've got to show kindness to these people in this community. So there was a heightened level of self-awareness that Jacinta Ardern modeled and I think that that is for all of us and particularly around.

Annette Gray: 26:54

We've got to lean into really challenging and difficult conversations.

Annette Gray: 26:59

If we want cultures in schools to be fully thriving, we've got to do that direct management piece, which is, I've got to have a conversation with the ones who aren't performing, because the last 20 years I've been back in schools after having a 10-year gap, and what I noticed is, as a sector, what happens is we have a passive approach to having direct conversations and then we leave it, leave it, leave it until we go out battling and going.

Annette Gray: 27:42

You've got to change and be quite oppositional. What we want to do is have it as part of the culture of the schools. So we are going to call out behavior that's not aligned to the kind of school we want to be, because what I noticed is in people's careers, people would move from school to school to school and never being called out on that behavior that everyone found challenging. So we're going to a place now of and the department have developed this direct management principles, philosophy, sort of thing, and looking at three things that will make it important to have this culture of direct management, because some people go to the extreme. When I want to have a conversation, they go oh, you're bullying me. Well, actually, no, I'm just holding you accountable to doing your role at a really good, effective level.

Drew J: 28:49

Can I pick up on that? That's a very interesting point that you've raised, because that is a I think that's a real fear in leaders at the moment of the backlash, of having the tough conversation, so to speak, or the difficult conversation, whatever we may call it. You're calling out behavior, you're not calling out the individual and there's a clear difference of line there. Difference of line there, but in terms of how that is interpreted, is the key takeaway to support the person. That's ultimately what you're trying to do to support the person, calling out the behavior, to stop that behavior which is inhibiting their performance, so to speak, or other people's performance, or the culture or the climate in their space. So it's a delicate act and I guess, in terms of the work you're leading, is that a big part of the work that you're leading to help leaders through that space?

Annette Gray: 29:56

Yes, definitely, because I find across all sectors it's an Australian cultural thing.

Annette Gray: 30:05

We haven't had good role models to how to have the difficult conversation and maintain the relationship. So what people tend to do avoid it, avoid it, avoid it and then have to really do something about it. So it's a big step to do something about it, rather than and what I love about what the document says that the department have put up about changing the culture around direct management is how do you be proactive? So what I love about a school I've worked with in Nowra they have actually been very explicit around. We want a school culture like this which we're going to be constructive, we're going to be coach-like, we're going to be clear on what is important in this school. So there's this proactive part that they've set up, that and we're going to have difficult conversations when things mightn't be working, but our aim is to help you move forward on that and to work with you to coach you to actually develop in that area. So they've been very explicit of what kind of culture they want to create and they've called that being blue. And being blue is not down being blue, being blue is around.

Annette Gray: 31:28

This tool I use a lot, which is a 360 degree feedback tool around someone's approach to leadership and is it constructive, is it passive-aggressive, or is it passive-defensive or aggressive-defensive? So we all have triggers in how we respond. If someone's going to sit down and have a conversation of how I've performed, and so some of us go green and avoid or go, okay, I'll do whatever you say. Some want to battle it out and go. I don't agree with that and others are really constructive, like the Jacinta Ardern's in the world. She works with people, not, whereas an aggressive way of being is I'm in power. I'll tell you how things are done. Yep, there's no negotiating here. This is I'm just going to tell you because I've got the power, Whereas the passive, they give away their power and well, that's what the department policy says, so I have to follow that, you know. So it's how do you actually work with people?

Annette Gray: 32:43

And I think one of the key skills for leaders, especially principals and I've seen some good ones do this well, they manage up well and go. Yes, we are going to implement that. However, this part is really important at the moment, so I will get to that when we've addressed this, because, in our context, this is what the school community needs the most at the moment, and the ones that did it well would not just be compliant, not just be compliant, they would be compliant but after looking at well, what's our context, how can we bring this concept in or bring this new strategy in, rather than being punitive and just going to teachers? You just need to do this. You just need to follow these 10 steps and the teachers are going. Another thing how are we? We going to integrate it, but in a respectful way.

Annette Gray: 33:43

So, having difficult conversations, keeping people accountable, focusing on people's well-being and leading that as a principle that I'm doing, the things I need for me to have my best version of myself show up, yeah, and often what I see is the ones that aren't coping, the ones that are new to the role. They will work around the clock and they don't have a life outside of being a principal. So, well-being really important Time to develop people and don't make this onerous. It's incidental conversations that can help people move forward. And I think the last because I listed about six challenges, and the last one is things are ambiguous at the moment. Things are complex. The world is complex at the moment. The impact of climate change how do we be more sustainable, like all of the things that we were given before it's changing. So how, as a leader of a school, how do I be open to managing through ambiguity and I'm not going to have all the answers, but we're going to work together to work it out as we go forward. Yeah.

Drew J: 35:13

Thank you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you you you, you, you, you.

Annette Gray: 35:57

But no, for me, I will get triggered if someone tries to prove their view is right and I'll want to battle it out with them. So now I know that. I've got to take a deep breath and I've got to go okay stop being judgmental, turn that volume down on that trigger. And how can I lean into the conversation? Yeah, because one of the things I like to do is be non-judgmental.

Annette Gray: 36:25

Sorry you go I was just going to say, one of the things I like to pride myself on is being non-judgmental. But if someone's doing this that triggers me and I me and I'm judgmental and it's like not the person I want to be, you know. So how do I do this self-leadership around? What is it I need right now? Okay, I need to breathe. I need to redirect this conversation to another time when I'm better equipped to be able to do it. So I often say leadership is a bit like parenting.

Annette Gray: 37:01

Leadership. Yeah, we trigger that in people when we're a leader. They want to feel valued, they want to be supported, they want a scene for their uniqueness. So how do we do that for ourself is what is crucial. So I think I came across this 18 months ago, at the end of 2023.

Annette Gray: 37:59

I was lucky enough to go to Antarctica with a women in leadership program and during those 21 days in Antarctica, I learned a lot about what's called the inner development goals. It's called the Inner Development Goals and I'm not sure if many of your listeners will be aware of. There's 15 sustainability goals that were brought into the Paris Agreement in 2015, which you know focusing on climate change and leading that, having diversity, equal pay. There's a whole lot of things. This will make us more sustainable world if everyone focused on this. And one of the key things around these inner development goals is self-awareness. How do we create more consciousness in the world? But then that comes back to in leadership. How do we create more self-awareness in leaders so they then can influence the change going forward? And I see that happens through coaching and not necessarily individual leadership coaching. I see it more in the shift in leadership.

Annette Gray: 39:19

Development is more around group coaching Because of the complexities and ambiguities that we're facing. There's no rule book. So bringing I'm doing this with leaders, where I'm bringing 10 leaders together, either in the same context or with schools, it can be a whole 10 principals and we're going to work on each other's leadership development based on what others are doing, and so you're opening that awareness around. Hey, there's a different way of doing that, whereas if we just keep it at individual coaching, people tell themselves stories and believe those stories, and sometimes it's not accurate. So this group coaching approach actually helps people get perspective. Actually, there's a multiple other ways of doing it. Had you tried this before? So it's working on their own leadership development, but with others.

Annette Gray: 40:23

So gone are the days that we can define a leader's role based on these competencies, because no human has all of them. We have spikes, we have things that we're really good at and things that we're not so good at. So the concept is complementary leadership, and this is what principals can do with their executive team, with anyone else who's in a leadership role, who's great at that, and that we can really delegate them to do that. But I'll support you on the side, but you don't have to do everything, and that's what this group coaching does.

Annette Gray: 41:03

We start with a tool, whether it's the wellbeing self-assessment or the it's called the lifestyles imagery, and that's the one that looks at your constructive styles, your passive styles and your aggressive, defensive styles. So it starts with self-awareness. So where am I currently at, what's working for me and what behavior have I really got to put some focus on, learn and see what others are doing around it. So they come in to the group coaching after an individual feedback around their results, which is done in private, they come into the rest of the group and the group keeps them accountable around their project of what they're going to change in their leadership, and that goes over six months.

Drew J: 41:52

Yeah, yeah, terrific. So in terms of you've alluded to the programs that you, could you tell us a little bit further about the programs that you have? I see you have leading or you've got foundations, leading coaching conversations. You've got mentoring programs. You've got group coaching. How might educational leaders benefit from engaging in programs like yours, from engaging in?

Annette Gray: 42:20

programs like yours. Sure, well, I like to take people on a leadership journey, and the first place is foundations. How do you have coach-like conversations? And so it's in your toolkit of how do I do this, and the key part of that is how do I be more solution-focused in the way I lead? So it's not about some people get confused that being solution-focused is come to me with your solutions, don't come to me with problems. That's not it at all. It's about how do we co-create the solution based on what you've tried already and based on what you've tried already and based on what you want.

Annette Gray: 42:59

So I'm going to be a co-creator with you of these solutions, rather than tell you what to do or expect you to go away and think about what you need to do.

Annette Gray: 43:09

So this is, get the basics of how to have effective coaching. Conversations is the first, and that's when the choice after that is then doing group coaching, because I want people to have the foundations of how do you need to be with others. Yeah, so you need to be open, curious, interested, have a growth mindset, be solution focused. So they're the foundations to then, if you come into group coaching and you're supporting others to grow and learn in that cohort, which is 10, and we meet for two hours every month for six months and then finally for the elite athletes of the leadership world. Then I'll work with people one-to-one. But I want those foundations and the group coaching experience because I think when you're coming into individual coaching you really want to be there and you really want to be those elite athletes in the principal world. They really want to make a difference and that's where the one-to-one support comes in. After they've opened their eyes to other approaches, whatever others done, is that all making sense?

Drew J: 44:31

Yeah, absolutely. I'm just taking it all in thinking from a principal perspective of all the different options of where to start with this journey. I'm curious about coaching, I'm thinking about it. Where do I start, Where's the journey?

Drew J: 44:46

And we'll put all of those notes and links into our showcase notes as well, for our listeners as well, for interested in terms of it's a matter of where do I start and where do I want to go, which is part of the scaffolding I suspect in the coaching journey that you'll lead our leaders through, and what I heard was the potential of accountability with the group coaching and potentially even from other sectors, which is not necessarily a bad thing as well to learn from others and hear about, which gives people it's actually sometimes refreshing as well to hear from the other sectors of their challenges and how they would deal with whatever the challenges they're dealing with as leaders as well. Yeah, and then moving into, as you said at the end, that elite athlete I really love that, really great thinking. You don't think of yourself for principals, as elite athletes, but they really to be high performers, they really need to think like an elite athlete.

Annette Gray: 45:55

Yes, exactly. And now I didn't mention my mentoring program, which is a, you know it's an easy way to get into the concepts and tools and skills that I provide to people, which is a self-paced mentoring made easy program. And that's not just for leaders, that's of people who are mentoring, mentoring who want to be a better mentor. Because what I notice about people are told you're a mentor but never given any skill development of what would be a good way of doing this. People always revert to I'm going to download all my wisdom and tell you how it's been for me, rather than actually you can be coach-like in your mentoring as well. So that's an easy way to start if you want some people to develop these skills in your school around how to be a better mentor.

Drew J: 46:52

Yeah, such important to go the default mentor process. You're a mentor whether you want to or not, but in terms of the skill set to be able to do that is a complete skill set in itself to be able to. So what I've heard is you have resources or a course that participants who are in that situation can go and access through your website yes, yes, and it's all-paced so they can do it in their own time.

Annette Gray: 47:19

And what I've also made it it's four hours of content and then four hours of practice with a real mentor a mentee, sorry and then come back and reflect on it. So it's like I'm the coach on the side, that they come back in and go okay, how did I do what seemed to work? But it's all been recorded, it's all video content and exercises and activities to do.

Drew J: 47:49

Yeah, fabulous, such a broad range there, annette. Terrific in terms of the overview that we've heard. Now let's get into some quick fire rounds we do with our guests to finish off. It's been a really great conversation with you. Let's start with one conversation that changed your life.

Annette Gray: 48:10

I've actually thought of two, okay, okay, one is the first leader. I had no second actually leader I had after I left teaching and went into the corporate world, into learning and development, and I became part of the human resource organizational development team and this leader it wasn't a I suppose it was a series of conversations, but what I noticed it was like you're doing things different. I've never experienced a leader doing what you're doing. He was being coached like and this was in the 1990s and it was before coaching as a profession came into Australia, and it was before coaching as a profession came into Australia and he had up on his whiteboard GROW, which is the GROW model, and I was curious around how he was leading. So it got me intrigued so much. My career path went down the leadership development path because I went, wow, he's doing it well, but I'm not experienced others doing it like that. So it was a series of just working and this guy was not old like he was 35 at the time but he just was this incredible way of being with others and I feel like I did some of my best work at that time because the way he was leading me. So that's one, and then the other happened in 2011. And that was around learning solution focus and my way of being. The way I live my life, the way I teach people to coach, is all about solution focus, and I'm now connected to a worldwide network of solution focus practitioners who have really influenced the way I coach, the way I facilitate, the way I be in my life.

Annette Gray: 50:25

It was a previous organization I work for. He was the managing director. He said I've come across this approach and I think there's something in it. And he was right. There was something in it. So three of us from that organization, senior leaders did a 16-week Solution Focus online program with the University of Wisconsin and Mark McGurk, who's a leading voice thought leader in Solution Focus. That brought it from the therapy world into the organisational world. So, yeah, it was him saying there's something in this One.

Annette Gray: 51:20

I've got four, okay. The first one would be coaching a to z, and it's by Haesun Moon. Haesun is a communication scientist from Toronto in Canada. If they read this book, coaching A to Z, they will get what solution-focused is and get the basics of what coaching is. The second one is called Love Plus Work and it's by a guy called Marcus Buckingham, and Marcus Buckingham, used to work for Gallup organization and that he researched what 35,000 leaders and managers around the world did.

Annette Gray: 52:14

Well, this book is around how do you help people bring out their uniqueness and how do you get them to love the work that they're doing and I think this is a game changer for leaders in schools but also other settings. Around what questions? There's only four that I need to ask weekly with people to help them find their own uniqueness so they love what they do. It's a brilliant book, and then there's two others. The third one is how to Work with Almost Anyone, and it's a guy called Michael Bungay-Stanier. He wrote the Coaching Habit, but this book is really good at giving practical things you can do. That sets up relationships well in your work context.

Annette Gray: 53:13

So, in this situation at schools, what are the things that we need to have a conversation about? When you first come to this school, yep, or when you're new as a principal in a school, how do you want to work with people? But it's a negotiation, yeah, of how we best work together. So for you, drew, you know if I'm working with you. You know how do you want me to be as your leader. What's going to work best for you. I need autonomy or I need some space, but I need to check in with you once a week or every two weeks, and that's what that original leader did back in the 90s. He asked us how regularly do we need to meet? Well, I said probably only every three weeks, but when my project gets close to the deadline, I need weekly conversation, one-to-ones, with you. So that's what he was doing. What Michael Bungay-Stanier says is about how to work with almost anyone. It's a negotiation that you need to sit down and work out. How do you best work? What do you need from me as your leader to bring out your best?

Annette Gray: 54:24

And then the fourth sorry is called no Bad Parts. No Bad Parts is the guy that developed internal family systems. His name's Richard Schwartz. Guy that developed internal family systems, his name's Richard Schwartz, and this is where the self-awareness piece comes in, for leaders Know your triggers. And he's basically saying we have an internal family of little children that are inside us and they get triggered at certain points when people say certain things to us. That is a bit like how a parent did, or a first teacher or first boss did, and we get triggered. So how can I show some compassion to that part of me, so I can then be in my best version of me going forward. So if principals and leaders in schools learn that for themselves, they're more likely then to be able to show be calm compassion to others when they get triggered. So that's where the self-awareness piece comes. So sorry one, thank you.

Annette Gray: 55:32

Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Well, it took me a while to think about this, but I went walking with my dog this morning and went ah, that's it, I know what it is it's going. I now moved six months ago. I moved closer to the beach, so my happy place is seeing the water. So I'll often take my dog for a walk later in the day, as well as sometimes in the morning, and seeing that ocean gives me perspective, you know.

Annette Gray: 56:33

So, whatever, getting out in nature is now well researched around. It's important that we all get our they call it the green prescription. You know how do you get out in nature more, and that's how I do it at the end of the day. That's one aspect, and the other is I try and sit in silence. You know you don't have to necessarily meditate, but I do. That's a morning routine I have. But even just sitting, closing your eyes for five minutes and going within gets things into perspective as well.

Drew J: 57:09

So having that silent space, Really practical advice for people listening going yeah, how? When was the last time that you did spend five minutes in in absolute silence? And it's amazing when you do that, annette, isn't it? How many thoughts can pass through that process, and I guess that's part of that processing of information that we do all the time that comes through this as well. Really practical, getting into nature and five minutes. So that's a challenge for our listeners. And I guess the last question I have is one piece of advice for leaders facing uncertainty.

Annette Gray: 57:57

Don't try and solve it. You know. Work with others to actually think about what. How do we make sense of this uncertainty and then, in our context, what's something small we can do to move forward on it. Don't try and be the fountain of all knowledge and have to work out on your own, or with just your you know deputy or AP around, what you're going to do. Use your people. You've got adults working with you who are very capable outside of work and you know, know, manage their lives. Utilize their resourcefulness, because they often have a different take um. So yeah, spread, collaborate with others to work it out yeah, terrific, very practical.

Drew J: 58:55

thank you you for sharing that overview of all of those gems that you shared with us today. Look, Annette, it's a pleasure to have you on our podcast. The critical role you play with supporting leaders I can hear that in terms of from the onset of the people that you're surrounded by are educators. The work you've led, which I heard today, especially the recovery phase of the Black Summer fires, and for anyone who wants to learn more, please visit annettegraycomau or check out Annette's YouTube channel at Annette Gray Consulting, and there's an incredible amount of wisdom there for educational leaders or anyone passionate about leading people. Well, annette, thank you again for your time and joining us today. Absolutely Thank you.