Building Schools for Tomorrow: Future-Focused Leadership with Dr Jason McGrath

What if we reimagined education from the ground up? Dr Jason McGrath, recently returned from the OECD in Paris, takes us on a fascinating journey through global education systems that are planning decades ahead while others remain trapped in short-term thinking.

The conversation delves into how countries like Wales, Malta, and Finland are transforming education through long-term visioning—creating 20-year workforce strategies and "foresight sandpits" where stakeholders can test innovative ideas before implementation. These approaches allow educational leaders to make bold short-term decisions aligned with thoughtful long-term goals rather than implementing band-aid solutions that ultimately hinder progress.

At the heart of this transformation lies a radical rethinking of teacher professionalism. McGrath introduces the concept of "connective professionalism"—where professional identity forms through meaningful relationships with students and families rather than through isolated expertise. This shift challenges school leaders to view all decisions through the lens of "teachers as professionals," empowering staff to contribute their unique strengths. McGrath's powerful metaphor of "bamboo scaffolding" perfectly captures this approach—providing flexible, temporary support that can be removed once no longer needed, rather than building rigid structures that limit growth.

The most thought-provoking insight may be the simplest: creating space to collectively think about preferred futures. When educators move beyond immediate problems to imagine possibilities, transformative thinking emerges. For principals feeling overwhelmed by daily demands, McGrath offers practical starting points—from six-word future scenarios to exploring how different staff members might respond to potential changes.

This episode illuminates how bridging classroom innovation with system-wide policy creates "policy from the middle" rather than top-down approaches. Through examples like Ireland's "Beacons Model" and Estonia's approach to educational technology, McGrath demonstrates how teacher expertise can drive meaningful change when properly elevated and supported.

Ready to rethink what's possible in education? Subscribe now and join the conversation about creating schools that truly prepare students for tomorrow's world.

Links to Dr Jason Mcgraths work:

Dr Jason McGrath Google Scholar profile and publications, https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=wbYO9v0AAAAJ&hl=en .

Links to educational and instructional leadership work

1. Dr Jason McGrath – Published works (Reseachgate.net)                                                  (home page)
2. Global Lessons, Systematic Connections, Schools' Support and Teachers' Work        (OECD article)
3. OECD Education Working Papers No. 296                                                                               (OECD article)

Links and References:

To view our Professional Learning Offerings, visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning

To view our latest offerings, visit: https://www.nswppa.org.au/catalogue

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Dr Jason McGrath
• 9:39 Education Systems Built for the Future
• 17:38 Professionalism in Education
• 33:48 Working with Families and Student Agency
• 42:38 Future Scenarios for Teaching
• 53:38 Leadership and System Transformation
• 1:08:15 Key Takeaways and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Drew: 0:00

Welcome back to Professional Learning's, the New South Wales PPA Educational Leadership Podcast. It's great to have your company. This podcast aligns to the values of the New South Wales Primary Principals Association, that is, the values of principal wellbeing, principals as lead learners, as well as supporting principals to lead school operations. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe for further updates. Now let's get into today's latest episode. Our guest today is Dr Jason McGrath, who is an educational consultant recently back from the OECD in Paris. What would it look like and what should Australian principals take away from that kind of radical thought experiment?

Dr Jason McGrath: 0:50

Yeah, it's interesting because I also asked what should remain and obviously the people who I involved, across the world, the experts, they struggled to answer that question what should be left, but eventually I was able to extract within some reasons why the system should stay.

Drew: 1:06

Jason, fantastic to have you on the podcast today.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:10

Thanks, Drew.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:10

It's great to be connecting with colleagues from New South Wales after a few years away in Paris.

Drew: 1:17

Yeah, absolutely, and I'm sure we'll dive into that in our discussion today. Let's jump right in, because your research is filled with the kind of questions that keep well, it keeps many leaders awake at night. Jason, you've authored a significant pieces such as Global Lessons, systematic Connections and Constructing the Scenarios for the Future of Teaching in Flanders. Beyond the Tit titles, the big question is this are our current education systems built for the future, or are we still designing schools for a world that no longer exists? And what's your sense from all the global research you've done so far?

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:59

Yeah. So my sense is the door is opening due to the teacher shortage and policymakers wanting to create positive change, but at the same time, there's many who are still focused on the short term and that provides a risk because it limits bolder decision making towards a vibrant future. When you know where you want to head in the long term, you can make short term decisions for the future in really bold and positive ways. There are some examples. So we work with four systems Flanders, austria, wales and Malta who have engaged in a future of teaching study, and their approach is, rather than seeking the bandaid, they've wanted to come up with a long-term plan. So in Wales, for example, when the publication came out, they're now looking at a 20-year workforce strategy and they're using the 20-year frame to really look at new ways of operating and taking their time to think through other ways of redesigning what the school workforce can look at. So they're not rushed, they're looking at longer-term solutions, they're working with colleagues, they're consulting and they're thinking about where they should go.

Dr Jason McGrath: 3:13

Malta and Finland are two countries that have been looking ahead. Finland has an interesting model it's been using for many years, but it is led by the universities, who was funded by the government to bring stakeholders together. Molsa also has a new model, but it's a very interesting model with the director of Foresight and they've created this idea called the Hub, which brings together stakeholders to test out ideas in what they call a Foresight sandpit. So we're testing out ideas without making any decisions so they can think about the implications before they actually make decisions. And the hub is a really interesting model because it's being used to look at very traditional parts of the of the system. So curriculum and other areas is now being filtered through the foresight Sam Pitt to make sure that new ideas are being thought about rather than the traditional approaches.

Drew: 4:11

Yeah, it's interesting to hear those different perspectives. Is there any leading model, like we always think in Australia that Finland is the leading leading model. Is there any particular model that you're seeing is actually making traction and I heard go back to the wales 20 year workforce which I heard and it's great that there's long-term thinking around that, but I'm hearing cynics saying well, how that could be. There's urgency now. Why can't we? We need to solve this workforce issue now. What's their thinking regarding that?

Dr Jason McGrath: 4:52

Yeah. So this is when I say 20 years, it's not that they're going to enact a plan in 20 years. What the difference is is they're looking at where do they want to be in 20 years and therefore, what short-term decisions do they want to make? But years, and therefore what short-term decisions do they want to make, but also what long-term decisions should they be thinking about? So most systems think only about the short-term. What do we have to do now?

Dr Jason McGrath: 5:15

And sometimes those ideas can be poorly implemented. For example, one system had a teacher shortage, had a lot of part-time teachers, decided to pay part-time teachers more, which was a great idea, except if you're a full-time teacher. So so the idea of the, the long term, is not to say we don't do short term, but we actually make sure we vision where we want it want to be. And it deals with this, um, this paradox that we have, that people are over change. They feel overwhelmed by change.

Dr Jason McGrath: 5:48

So we have this idea of the two-path planning process or in the research it's called policy ambidexterity where we separate short-term and long-term and by separating those two we can be clear on what we're focusing on. So we can have a conversation about the longer term which doesn't put pressure on the short term so people don't feel as overwhelmed. But it also opens up new strategies for long-term planning, because long-term planning is different. You can look what a school's already doing, you can look at research, you can do pilots, those kinds of ideas. So by introducing the long-term, you're not saying we're not making short-term decisions, but what you are saying is, when you're clear on where you want to go in the future, you will be clearer on making bolder decisions in the short-term and, more importantly, you won't make short-term decisions that actually prevent you getting to the long-term vision you want to achieve.

Drew: 6:39

Yeah. Well if we look long-term, will schools still have a place to play in society? If we do look long-term, have you looked at that research as well?

Dr Jason McGrath: 6:49

So, before I go to the OECD, there are four scenarios that were developed in the traditional form. The work that we focused on was using a different form, called preferred scenarios. One of those four scenarios developed by the OECD would say that schools are limited or don't exist as much, but this is done on a format that says it may not be possible. It's not probable more so rather than less so because as we become more linked across the world, globally, through technology, we need to be more connected locally with people. But also some of the areas like the environment, we're now looking at place-based solutions and that means bringing people together to solve the big together. So for me, it's both we look more globally, but we should be also looking more locally. Interestingly, I think we don't look enough globally because we don't have connections beyond our system boundaries. On down system boundaries we don't even have you know. So teachers are connecting with other teachers in other states, for example, or New Zealand, or across the world. So I would say we're probably limited in more of the international space.

Drew: 8:15

Why do you think that is at the moment, that is a current trend that we're seeing as well. I don't think it's a deliberate shutting of borders mindset but is it just time?

Dr Jason McGrath: 8:42

No, it's more about we can do virtual visits to NASA, we can do virtual visits to a whole lot of places, but it's a half a day thing or it's a couple of hours. What if we had, you know, kids who are very passionate about some of these areas working with other kids who are passionate about these areas for a term? What if their classroom became that? What if the classroom became the local library for a term, or another area that's available in the local area? So it's about thinking about different ways we can reconceive what the classroom looks like to make that possible. So we certainly have the technology to do it. It's the other space and it's also how do we create space? So a teacher might, for example, be embedded in a project where there's only 10 students, you know, working with 10 students from another country or three other countries. How does that? How might that work? So it requires a bit of resourcing in that sense.

Drew: 9:42

A different thinking as well, or different paradigm thinking about that possibility. As you said, we've got all of the technology to be able to connect, do the collaboration. It's just allowing those barriers system barriers to enable that to happen, so to speak.

Dr Jason McGrath: 10:04

That's right and you know the curriculum. So a curriculum in New South Wales is different to curriculum in other areas. So we've got to say but in reality we're still looking at similar ideas. So it's, how do we foster those kind of opportunities, particularly for the high end to start with? Perhaps you know as part of the HPGE stuff, perhaps you know as part of the HPGE stuff, you know how can we really let kids go beyond the boundaries of the curriculum and at the same time, how do we replicate that for students who perhaps aren't motivated at the school? Imagine if we could again bring people into the school and work with a small group of kids embedded in a project that ignites their passion. So there's ways to do it. But it does mean looking at how do we and work with a small group of kids embedded in a project that ignites their passions. So there's ways to do it. But it does mean looking at how do we unpack the system a little bit and provide those opportunities.

Drew: 10:53

Yeah, and if we go to your article, what If Compulsory Schooling Was a 21st Century Invention? You asked an even bigger question If we invented school today from scratch, what would it look like and what should Australian principals take away from that kind of radical thought experiment?

Dr Jason McGrath: 11:13

Yeah, it's interesting because I also asked what should remain, and obviously the people who I involved across the world, the experts they struggled to answer that question what should be left but eventually I was able to extract with them some reasons why the system should stay. So my motivation for that was I was a principal at the time and I was really curious and challenged by Sir Ken Robinson's big narrative that schools hadn't changed since the Industrial Revolution, because me and everyone around me were change fatigued and it's like, well, how does that work? I was also curious about different ideas for schooling, like Yong Zhao and others were advocating, and my question was what does this mean for kids who aren't passionate about schooling or who struggle with schooling? Because it's all well and good to come up with great ideas for kids who love school. I did get an answer after my PhD and that sort of sent me on a path as a principal to be more innovative.

Dr Jason McGrath: 12:19

The short answer came to do with flipping the way we do things, and that is that we unleash the brilliance and I use Mark Strong's term of brilliance there in students first, and then we scaffold as necessary, and I take the idea from Singapore of the bamboo scaffolding rather than what I call the concrete scaffolding sometimes that we use, so the bamboo scaffolding is this idea that scaffolding is supposed to be temporary and it's supposed to be dispensable. So you use the scaffold, then you're supposed to take it away so that you see that the kids can do this by themselves. And I think sometimes we focus more on building really rigid scaffolding and not the other way around. So the answer I came up with unleash first, if kids can already do this stuff, take them to that next level, but then really focus on the kids who need the scaffolding. Give it to them, but also make sure that that scaffolding was removed for them as well.

Dr Jason McGrath: 13:14

And what I meant for my leadership as a principal was that not only one innovation, but more of an open mindset to inquire as a team. So we became a yes, and culture Staff very quickly learned that if they came up with an idea and they had some thinking around it, I would try to make it work and we would connect people and make it work. Sometimes those ideas came through, incidentally, and sometimes people became more confident and they proposed these ideas more boldly. But the expertise within the team was far greater than I had, you know, even with my PhD or anything like that, we built our ideas using bamboo scaffolding as well. We didn't know where we were going to go with an idea. We just knew that it was valuable enough to start it and we saw where it went. That it was valuable enough to start it and we saw where it went. So my advice in terms of innovating or transforming is you need to create a light structure around it and be confident enough in the expertise around to go forward with it.

Drew: 14:19

And one of the reasons I really love your work, jason, is because it doesn't just exist on paper. It's connected to our bigger global efforts in the OECD, like TALIS, the Education 2030 Project and the Digital Education Outlook. For our listeners who might be leading schools, say, in remote New South Wales or even busy metropolitan settings, I want to ask how do these massive global studies actually connect to the work of principals in real schools? Because sometimes you go, oh, that's great, but how does that have an impact and what should leaders here be watching for as these projects unfold?

Dr Jason McGrath: 15:00

Yes, so in all of my roles I connect practice, policy and research. That's one of the things I ground my work in in my leadership, and so when I went to the OECD, I brought with me my practitioner expertise. I guess one of the proudest parts of that was the work that we the project we worked on was showing how to contextualize international evidence in local contexts. So we developed a framework of ambition loops that were based in international research but also grounded in local context. So we actually ran a seminar with researchers in each country that we worked with and that made the research base even better. The other way we translated it was we developed these teacher personas. We developed a set of about six teacher personas in each country and what it did was it showed that not all teachers are the same. I mean, we only had six, it wasn't representative of all teachers, but it showed that there are different types of teachers. So we developed teachers personas working in the countryside or in a city. We developed experienced teachers and we also developed a future teacher.

Dr Jason McGrath: 16:16

And what that did for policymakers was it brought alive the idea that we need to think about how a policy context, how a policy choice decision, influences different people and we went as far as to say to them these personas should be hanging up in your boardroom. When you're making decisions, you should be thinking about these people, because some of these people are a lot further away where the decision-making is happening. So in the city you know the capital city there's people in the rural side. So what are the issues for the rural teacher? Now, again, they're evidence-based, but they're not representative of all teachers. But they give this sense that we have to think more broadly, and the same is true for a principal. When you make decisions, if you're sitting in your principal office making decisions with whoever, there's a chance that you're missing a whole lot of other people who aren't represented. You know, younger teachers may not be represented, or older teachers, and it makes decision-making more complicated but also more sophisticated. So that's really something that's important.

Dr Jason McGrath: 17:22

At a global level. We should be learning from each other, being a principal and going to these other countries and meeting other principals. They have the same issues as us. They're trying to work through how to make the best for their school and also how to influence policymaking. So things are very similar. But on the other hand, there's also lessons we can learn In New South Wales, for example, we've got a more open curriculum, We've created more space, but I know several countries that have done similar things that haven't fully realized the benefits of this because they haven't worked out how to make use of that extra space and build the capacity through professional learning so we can learn from each other.

Dr Jason McGrath: 18:08

In terms of the specific work, the TALIS survey will be very exciting when it comes out at the end of the year. That's a survey of teachers and school leaders around the OECD and their views on many topics, so I'm really excited to hear what comes out of that. We use the TALIS 218 in our research. Education 230, or 2040 now, has moved from a framework for students to a framework for teachers, so that's new and interesting to have a look at. It's important to understand how the OECD works.

Dr Jason McGrath: 18:43

As well as having the secretariat where I worked and we're doing our research. A whole lot is bringing together information that countries provide us and countries are part of project meetings. Australia has a delegation in Paris that represents Australian views, represents Australian views, and so these ideas are being put together, reflective of what school systems think on different topics. So I think it's really important to be open to new ideas and to realise that we can learn from each other and we should talk to. Even just talking to each other, we learn from each other to learn from each other and we should talk to.

Drew: 19:31

Even just talking to each other, we learn from each other. So how can we actually create that forum that's? I mean, that's obviously OECD can create those forums, but how can we, as educational leaders, connect more globally?

Dr Jason McGrath: 19:42

So obviously through the research is one connect more globally. So obviously through the research is one. Um, the OECD has, uh also has webinars and and things that um you can can engage in different projects, um, but I think it's a mindset for us. It comes down to creating space to think, uh, more long term. What I mentioned before, um having the chance to reflect.

Dr Jason McGrath: 20:03

When you're, when we're constantly thinking about the day-to-day struggles, we don't give ourselves time to do other things. So it's really about maybe professional associations to think about ways of doing it. For example, let's take a topic like well, any topic. Really, what if we got every professional association to nominate three or four people to investigate this, share what's happening in different states and then present that back to someone? I mean, we do it well at a local level, but it'd be interesting to see how we can connect.

Dr Jason McGrath: 20:43

It is interesting, working in the OECD, to see that you know a lot of the experts. They're just people. You can email them. You know if any piece of research has their email address on it, you can connect that way too. So there are ways, but again, it comes down to a desire and it is more challenging in this side of the world time difference. You know, I know when we have. When we were in Paris you know we had people from New Zealand who had to be in midnight. You know the midnight when they're involved in international work. So there are opportunities that I think we have to value it before we find the way. Finding the ways is easy. It's just finding the time and the commitment to wanting to do it.

Drew: 21:33

Yeah, and some of those very practical ideas. But in theory and practicality is interesting to see If we move to the big thing that's running through your work. It's the new professionalism and, I think, one of the most important ideas in education today. Here's the big question Are we ready to let go of the old idea of teachers as isolated experts and embrace a future where professionalism meets collaboration, evidence and constant reinvention? And for our principals they're saying what does this new professionalism really look like in practice?

Dr Jason McGrath: 22:14

Yeah. So this was one of the most interesting pieces for me, because I hadn't really explored this before I went to Paris With, coming back, I obviously have learned this and then we've applied it. So I now argue that we've got the debate wrong. We've been trying to compare teacher professionalism to doctors in the 1950s, and doctors in the 1950s don't exist anymore. This form of professionalism is called protective professionalism and you become a professional because you have a body of knowledge that only you know about and therefore that gives you status, but they don't exist anymore. So doctors are more regulated. Doctors involve patients a lot more in decision-making. One of my own daughters went to the doctor just last week. She said I've got a plan, she knew what she wanted from the doctor and she went there and came out with that advice being followed. So the doctor worked with the patient, and so we have to start thinking more carefully about what is the new form of professionalism. So for us, having gone all the way back to the Hippocratic Oath, we then came across this work by Merpo Noordgaard, who's a Dutch expert in this area, and he coined the phrase connective professionalism expert in this area, and he coined the phrase connective professionalism and what he argues and we we took up this idea is that you define professionalism in every way. You act with the partner you're working with. So and this is called work for teachers we work with people all the time. That is that's why we are professionals. We work, work with students and we work with families. So we're actually in a really good place in this type of definition. So we talked with experts across the OECD about this and they said our partners are students and families, not one or the other, and so each time we engage with parents and with teachers, that's how we, our students, that's how we demonstrate our professionalism, and some of the work shows that making a school welcome. Yes, the principal can be at the front gate and do all those nice things, but it's actually how the teachers interact with the families that makes the school welcoming. So it changes your whole mindset.

Dr Jason McGrath: 24:30

When we looked at these concepts of professionalism, we found there are actually three areas where teachers as a profession are actually probably more advanced than some other professions collaboration, professional learning, engaging with research. We'd all like to do better in those areas, but we actually have the bones and the commitment to want to advance those areas and we found three areas that we should be focusing on more. So career specialisation having visible career specialist tracks is something. More autonomy in most systems not all systems and increasing the status of teaching across the profession, across the society.

Dr Jason McGrath: 25:14

But with connecting professionalism there's a sort of another side of it. It means moving away from the old ideas of just having authority because you're a teacher. So we have to start looking at the concept of how do we develop professional authority, both for individuals but also collectively, and so some research from Switzerland and other places talks about we need to focus on our curriculum and pedagogical expertise. That's how we demonstrate our status as teachers and experts and professionals. But also our relational expertise, which generally is a strength and also introspection. So the capacity for us to reflect on how we make a difference, how we impact on those students and those families. Do we understand how our actions actually impact on those? So this is a different way of conceptualising what professionalism means. So connective professionalism for us more relational. It demonstrates teachers as a profession, but it opens a door for new ways of thinking about how we look at it.

Drew: 26:19

So if a principal wants to build their culture of this new professionalism, where do they start? Even if their staff feel overwhelmed or stretched, or always? This is just another change. Fatigue what is this? What's one practical thing leaders can do now or tomorrow.

Dr Jason McGrath: 26:38

Yeah, so we have a provocation that we would put a policymaker, but it's the same for principals as well, and that is so. Most education policy is about teacher quality or it's about teacher supply, and we said we're going to remove those two and we're going to look at our work through the work of teachers as professionals. So if we look at making decisions through the lens of teachers as professionals, what are the implications for each decision that you make? And that's where we went and that's where I think principals need to can think about and at least the more bolder, at least to be more bolder, more open. And this is really important because we want young people to choose the profession of teaching and talented young professionals won't choose teaching unless they can see that there's scope for them to be treated as professionals, to have space to be a professional and to contribute.

Dr Jason McGrath: 27:37

I mentioned the work when I was a school leader. I didn't realize the expertise that was in my staff until I started hearing them talk about things Math teachers explaining what's needed to get great maths results. I knew generally how we try to get high in performance and that, but these people have expertise that I don't have, and if we tap into that and we support it and empower it. They then start talking to each other and a whole lot of stuff happens you don't even know about until someone says you know the number of times as principal you hear someone say, oh, what a fantastic thing you did. And you say, oh, actually I didn't do it. Oh, I didn't even know about it. You know I had. Yeah, so you know, and that's the culture you want.

Dr Jason McGrath: 28:35

That's the culture you want where people feel empowered professionally to make professional decisions and to go forth. You know, and I compare it to you know, when I was a headteacher many years ago, I was in school in the morning and a really, really experienced teacher came to me and said Jason, jason, there's a trolley of paper that someone's brought to the school and we have to sign for, and there's no administrators to sign for it. And I just say it's okay, we can do it. You know? Yeah, but as a metaphor, it's always stuck with me as a metaphor why doesn't that person feel professionally empowered to be able to sign for that? And sometimes it's a cultural thing that we need to really explore. So for me, if we make decisions as teachers, as professionals, how does that change our thinking and it does take you out into ways that you might want to say, oh, I feel a bit uncomfortable about this and obviously then you've got to manage that uncomfortable space, but it takes us forward.

Drew: 29:43

And it's thinking about well, what is defining what is actually professionalism actually is. What is that, as you went back to? We're not the doctor surgery, as you said in the 1950s mindset, the fountain of all knowledge. It's moving into the space of obviously well-trained expertise in whatever key learning area is, or in primary, across all those key learning areas. How can we be? How? What does professionalism actually look and sound and feel like in a, in a modern australian school context?

Dr Jason McGrath: 30:24

exactly and and it's a great example with the klas the variety out there. There's so many teachers with passions and experience in those different areas. Let's unleash that yeah, absolutely.

Drew: 30:38

And now, listening to you, jason, I can't help thinking about our recent discussion that we have with live penny. Live talk about our upper primary and how many. So how many kids have a narrow, and you talked about careers. Briefly, that were, she said, aspirations were really shaped by their postcodes, their family expectations, their limited role models. She also said question here is how do we help students and teachers see themselves as authors of their own story and not passengers in someone else's script? And, from your OEC perspective, how can principals practically foster that kind of agency, both in staff and in students?

Dr Jason McGrath: 31:28

Yeah, so for staff, I'd go back to the teachers as professional wins and what I've mentioned. For staff, I'd go back to the teachers as professional wins and what I've mentioned. But for students, we developed a set of ambition statements I mentioned that had actions for different partners to be involved in and we looked at families as well and we had the opportunity to work with Emeritus Professor Debbie Pusher from Canada, who developed this pedagogy of walking alongside families. It's quite exciting and some of her work is actually based from research in Australia, from Canada, who developed this pedagogy of walking alongside families. It's quite exciting and some of her work is actually based from research in Australia.

Dr Jason McGrath: 32:00

So this idea that we have to re-look at families is the first step and families is a two-edged sword because families have a lot to offer. But we also know that families is a big stressor at the moment. So we have to re-look at developing the way we work with families. We have to really you know, with technology now and a whole lot of other things, we have to really think about how that works successfully. But a third of teachers in the last TELUS survey working with parents was a stressor.

Drew: 32:32

We also know that for the research we did yeah, well, I was going to say what do you think that is? Is that because are parents expecting more from their teachers in that professionalism way, or do you think it's society is a part of that, or is there further research to that answer?

Dr Jason McGrath: 32:54

So one of the pieces is teachers don't get trained in it, so it's limited in professional, in university training and you can imagine well, I've often pondered that young teachers come out and the parents are older than them and so we never develop, I guess, the positive habits early on. I think the technology means that teachers are more accessible to parents and often it's a negative experience or we expect a negative experience. If you talk to any teacher who's really good at it, who loves this stuff, it's the other way around. They love talking to parents and they get energised by it because they're on the front foot and they know they've got to do it. There's experts in our schools who can guide other people, so it's not everybody.

Dr Jason McGrath: 33:45

But I think sometimes we feel and then it's not really protocols in terms of in all schools about how do we say that's enough, it needs to go to the next level and we don't necessarily have developed explicit rules about good ways of working. So you know what time should we finish? Should we expect not to communicate? You know time of the day and those sort of things, really simple things that can create a culture, because it's explicit and I think it's just that we don't have enough explicit rules. So I think we probably need to think about that. And we also don't know about Debbie Push's work. She says you've got to open up to more parents being involved. So you know, we invite parents into a meeting, we run the agenda. She says well, why don't we have a, you know, a meeting where parents who we know tell new teachers about the local culture, share some food and share some things? So when we flip it the other way, it actually saves time, it's more beneficial. So it's really a way of thinking about it differently.

Drew: 35:00

Yeah, yeah, and I've recently had a podcast with Lilla Milakovic, who's a former secondary principal, and she explained exactly that, how she transformed the culture of her context through that exercise of really getting to know her community and even inviting them. This was radical practice, as you can imagine, 25 years ago, of inviting parents in and actually doing a staff development day where they ran the staff development day, and it totally changed from there on. It changed to complete the dynamic of the of the school, because the teachers and educators could understand this, this the context in which their students are living in, but also the expertise as well, that actually brought the community closer. She said through that exercise, and that stuck with me in terms of that, what you just said there and I'm thinking I haven't seen, or that's still not common practice.

Dr Jason McGrath: 36:08

Yeah. So Doobie and Pushy tells a really great story where a kindergarten classroom were asked to bring in a game from home and one of the African kids brought in a it's Mon Cala, which is one of our family favorites, but brought in this game and it's certain little marbles and then they go in holes and you play around but the kid wasn't able to explain it. So this kindergarten teacher rings home and eventually dad comes along and explains this game and they're all fascinated by this game. But then one kid puts his hand up and says this is like an egg carton. And they said, yes, it is, and they all ended up making their own Moncala set with egg cartons. It was a brilliant example of where you know that openness it's an openness to, it's a mindset as well. So that's certainly one thing.

Dr Jason McGrath: 37:01

The other thing about, in terms of going back to your original question around agency, this is an area where I think policy is leading the way more than practice. Both the OECD but also UNESCO are really developing policy around or policy advice around, empowering children. So child empowerment and this is something that we again need to go out into that uncomfortable zone and work with a bit more. But there's an interesting example from PISA, where there's a negative correlation between knowledge of science and believing that you can make a difference for climate change. So the smarter you are with science, the less optimistic you are about being able to do anything about climate change, which is a real concern. Optimistic you are about being able to do anything about climate change, which is a real concern.

Dr Jason McGrath: 37:58

So this came up this has come up in a ministerial meeting where education ministers from around the OECD came together and were talking around this idea and it got to the point where people were arguing that we need to empower students, young people, and give them agency, because this is about democracy. If people don't feel part of being able to change institutions, public institutions, then they're going to be in a very divided world. Already it's hard for people to see that these public institutions are there for them. On the other hand, if we can show young people that they can make decisions about their own learning, then that's a way of showing the public institutions actually support their lives and it supports democracy.

Dr Jason McGrath: 38:50

Ireland have taken this up. Democracy. Ireland have taken this up and next year, which is in September next year when they come back they've just developed a new senior course around sustainability, but what's interesting about it is, as well as learning the science, they have to actually develop a group project, locally place-based solution around sustainability. So it's teaching people that you can't do it by yourself. You can do something and you can start in your local environment, and so this is an example where taking this child empowerment can lead through all the way to curriculum and change the way we think about doing schooling.

Drew: 39:40

And when's that?

Dr Jason McGrath: 39:40

In 2026, you said Well, their school year starts in sort of August, september, so it will start then, but they've already done the preparation work and it picks up all of these ideas that were at this ministerial meeting around equity and these are stuff that we need to know, the science that we also need to build, the collective action. That's why it's a group project, so they're not asking people to come up with an individual project. They say come up with a group. And it's also a place-based solution. So work in your local environment, come up with something that you feel you're making change or empowering these people to be not only great students but citizens of their own society.

Drew: 40:27

Yeah, Are you optimistic with what you're seeing globally like in terms of where education is going?

Dr Jason McGrath: 40:37

Well, it's funny because when you look globally, you see people going crossways. So some people are going from you know. Some people have very autonomous professions and they're trying to become more collaborative. Some have more collaborative professions more collaborative, some have more collaborative professions. So in some ways, you see just people just choosing a particular policy space. It's not actually where they go, it's how they do it and it's the ones who take the time to actually listen to the educators and build good policy.

Dr Jason McGrath: 41:13

Because one of the things we have seen from PISA is there are schools who are improving both outcomes and equity, but Australia is not one of those. Australia hasn't really moved. So there are countries who are doing it and interestingly, some of those countries, like Ireland, had a teacher as an education minister and built really innovative but progressive, supportive of the professional policies, but also supportive of young people and supportive of families. So it can be done, but it is hard to change. But it's really about just a commitment to wanting to make a change, which is why we go to school every day. Right, we believe, we have to believe. So, yeah, Absolutely yeah.

Drew: 42:01

it's interesting to hear where you see because you see that global perspective and where Australia sits at the moment. So obviously further work to do in that space moment. So obviously further work to do in that space. So let's switch and talk about something that every school leader is thinking or needs right now as a way to think beyond the next staff meeting or the next budget cycle, as we do across the nation. Your OECD project on Flanders I wanted to discuss. Constructing future scenarios, for teaching is one of the most fascinating examples of that. And the big question, jason, is how do we lead schools today while planning for the worlds that might look completely different tomorrow? And from that, what did you learn from working alongside educators to build possible futures, and how might leaders here in New South Wales try similar approaches?

Dr Jason McGrath: 42:57

Yeah, so it's an interesting one, because when I did my PhD which was when I was a principal and I was really only doing it for fun people said that well, it's not really going to get you anywhere. But the people who are interested in the future's work are in the international public service. So it's been really good to not only do it theoretically but also then to apply it in at least four systems. So we've got two choices we can't predict the future, but we can wait for it and react, or we can try and anticipate it, develop what we think are our preferred futures and make decisions towards that. They're our choices, and the systems that I've worked with are the ones who did the latter. As school leaders, we draw on hindsight, we look to the past, we mostly spend our time on insight, which is evaluations and the like. More and more, we need to focus on the future, because the future is different to the past and so we need to start thinking about it. It was interesting that we developed these ambition statements about what different actors need to do, could do, and we surveyed each. We surveyed teachers, school leaders, other stakeholders on two scales. How important do you think this statement is and what level of change is required. Is it a strength, is it short-term improvement or does it need long-term change? And there was one really simple statement that was rated very important by all systems but required long-term change. And I was surprised that it required long-term change. But this is a statement. What if we create space to think collectively about the future? What if we simply created space to think about that at different levels?

Dr Jason McGrath: 44:48

And an interesting example actually happened in Flanders, one of the first stakeholder meetings we had. So we had principals, we had teachers, we had people from the wellbeing sector, we had all sorts of people and the conversation started. We were talking about the future, not the present. But it started off by saying teachers, saying we don't have enough support for wellbeing. But what was interesting was across the table were those wellbeing people. So we couldn't have that sort of typical discussion. They had to go beyond that and they used the ambition statements and the other processes we had.

Dr Jason McGrath: 45:28

But they came up with the most fantastic scenario at the end of the day, and it was what if schools are clearly placed within a web of partners providing everything that children need to develop? What if schools were part of a bigger web to give everything to the students that we need, and the caveat was it's not for teachers to design this. Teachers do their bit, they make their relationships, and a bit of learning that came from me, which is so simple, but came from this conversation, was they had all these little circles, concentric circles, different partners, and what became clear was what we actually need to do is focusing on the first circle first. The ones that interface with teachers every day is the ones we need to see what the issue is. Then we can move our way up.

Dr Jason McGrath: 46:26

So just having this conversation about the future and going from just what the problem is to what we see as possibilities opens up this whole other ideas. They wanted one of the ambition loops. They wanted government agencies to be talking to each other health, education, social welfare at the ministerial level, they need to be talking to each other, and Wales, for example, has picked that up. They're initiating a conversation where ministers and their senior advisors are talking to each other to come up with some ways of working together. Use the same language, whatever it is. So this is an example of how it is, but we need to allow ourselves to create space to think about the future, because what it does is adds optimism and opportunities and it increases agency. It's that simple, so it's actually just about talking more to each other.

Drew: 47:26

Yeah, it makes complete sense.

Dr Jason McGrath: 47:51

Yeah, it makes complete sense, it's the actual reality, of putting that time to make sure it can happen, putting that construct around, that to ensure those thoughts go into actual actions. And what does that look and sound and feel like? And then reporting upon those actions to see if there's any traction from that. That's right and so that's why we came up. So through our processes we did some preparation work, like the survey, but then we do a week in the country we develop these four to six preferred scenarios for the future of teaching. But the last day we actually worked with the lead policymakers to look at, to test, stress test these. We also stress test the scenarios with the personas that I mentioned earlier. So what does this look like for different types of teachers? What would they need more of? What does it mean for them? And it wasn't that it was bad if something was negative for a particular persona, but it was important learning to understand that no one's well. Very few of these scenarios would actually be positive for all people.

Dr Jason McGrath: 48:42

We had a great example in one country where we had two principal leaders, a very formal country like in Austria, where everything's regulated. We asked the people to look at how the two principal personas we developed would respond to this and they ripped the paper in half and said well, one would be over this extreme and one would be on this extreme, which is important learning as well. But it's about making it more complicated but then more sophisticated. So decision-making is more sophisticated, and the same is true at a school level. It's about going beyond your bias, understanding what other ideas are around and then how to move between it and as you have those conversations, the future is going to keep changing, but you can draw back on those conversations. That's the argument we have.

Drew: 49:35

So if you bring it back to the local level, principal wants to dip their toe into scenario thinking with their staff. What's a simple way to really start without feeling so overwhelmed? Or this is just like how can they construct that conversation?

Dr Jason McGrath: 49:57

Yeah, so an interesting piece that I just read recently actually was a six-word future scenario heading. This was actually done by a school practitioner who's doing some research as well. So imagine if you asked all stakeholders or all teachers or do it at executive level, whatever you prefer to come up with a six-word future scenario heading about what their preferred future would be. And then you ask them to group those similar ideas. What comes of it? Because then that starts the conversation and then maybe you take away and you research some of those.

Dr Jason McGrath: 50:34

Another idea that I've used so each of the publications that's flanders, wales and austria each of the preferred scenarios has a one page, a blue page. It's open access so you can access it through the OECD website. It's open access and there's a one page summary. So I've worked with educators and I've given them a set of scenarios and asked them to say which one do they like. But then the next bit is to say in three words, why do you like it? And I've formed a very simple word cloud. So that could be a starting point and it might lead to you know, groups writing their own scenario headings and then doing a bit of research about it and then thinking about what does it mean for the short and long term? So there's lots of simple ways to start, but I know a number of school leaders who I shared the blue pages with have done that with their staff as well, and also the personas. Looking at the personas, there's also a one-page summary of each of those, if people are interested.

Drew: 51:36

And what's the feedback been like from those exercises that principals have reported back to you?

Dr Jason McGrath: 51:43

Yeah, it's the empowerment part and the value of the conversation, because you're having a conversation without you're not saying we're going to do this or we're going to do that. It comes back to what I was saying before about the hub and molten, the foresight sandpit. It's a chance to play with ideas without looking at any consequences. You can look at the consequences without sort of saying I'm going to do this anyway. It's a chance just to think, reflect, to see where the conversation goes and the principles who have used it. That's what comes out of it. It starts a conversation. Somebody comes back and says that conversation we had you know I've been thinking about that and it's a shared conversation, so you can always go back to a shared conversation and sort of keep it developing.

Dr Jason McGrath: 52:28

So we did it with policymakers. We asked them before one meeting. We said what are you currently focusing on? And they basically listed all the doom and gloom. You know teacher shortages, ageing, profession, blah, blah, blah. And so what would you hope to be thinking doing in 10 years' time? And the words they chose were different. You know it was more about empowering and opportunities. Doing in 10 years' time, and the words they chose were different. It was more about empowering and opportunities, and so it's a mindset change apart from anything else which is empowering, and then gives you sort of hope and optimism to then feel, okay, I'm going to look beyond the solution to this problem. I'm going to look to where I want to go and then how do I go forward.

Drew: 53:10

And it can really change, as you said, the mindset, which has a knock-on effect to wellbeing as well without and thinking beyond in the trenches, so to speak, or issues. It's thinking beyond that space. And I guess that leads me to the next part of one of our most powerful pieces of research in the New South Wales PPA has been the recent work of Anne McIntyre and her path. Research showed that when principals lead professional learning, it doesn't just improve practice in one school, it creates system-wide change. One school that creates system-wide change. And here's the question for you, jason how do we move from individual leadership development to leadership that genuinely transforms whole systems? And you've read Anne's work and you know from the global context. How does her research align with what you're seeing globally?

Dr Jason McGrath: 54:08

Yeah. So Anne's words are fantastic. It is saying we do have to move to that collective approach. You can't do it alone, and so it really is as simple as recognising that. But what does that mean in practice At a school level? One of the things we identified was there are great teachers out there who are passionate, have a lot of experience to share, who don't want to get up in front of 200 people and share something at a conference, but who would be prepared to go to the school next door and share their expertise. So that's the starting point how do we share expertise across the local schools? We share expertise across the local schools For these people, who are the typical people who would want to be nominated to do this sort of work. It's just the people who are really good in the classroom but who, if you tap them on the shoulder quietly, would say, okay, I'll do that and would feel valued by it. And this comes back to these personas, these different types of people, also at a local level. I mentioned this sort of example of principals. But what if you've got a group of teachers from different schools and you ask them to go and examine a topic, whatever the topic is, by going to each of the schools and seeing what each school is doing. Each school could present, or you could go to some classrooms or whatever you like. They could do some research as well. But most importantly, they have to share that information and learning back. What if they shared back to the group of principals or more what they found and what their recommendations are those kind of ideas?

Dr Jason McGrath: 55:48

At a system level we need to look at how we take the bottom up policy making or policy from the middle, and the Leopold in Flanders is the knowledge broker organization. In there They've got this great model where they bring schools together with the researchers. So the Leopold exposes them to the evidence together with the researchers. So the lead client exposes them to the evidence, as does the researchers. They build their innovation with the evidence. It's evaluated, at the same time ongoing, so they're making good decisions as they go through. And then they have to have a communication strategy. That communication strategy is twofold. What's your general communication? But the other one is, which is really interesting is that the Leopards know that the same schools go for the innovation grants all the time. So to get one of these innovation grants, you've actually got to bring on a school that hasn't had one before, so directly involved in building up the system. They call it countering the Matthew effect, and then they've got to share it. So you have this and you have this. They're influencing policymaking through that bottom-up practice. So it's not just bottom-up practice, it's curating it.

Dr Jason McGrath: 57:08

Education International talks about micro-innovations that schools are already innovating. We've just got to capture it, curate it and see what it means for policy. And so this is a great way of doing it. But there are other ways, like lighthouse projects and other types of models, to do it. But from a school level it's as simple as identifying those people who are excellent practitioners, who don't want the glory, and just saying you know, would you go and share that with this group in this school? It's a bit like I forget the name of the person, but the research into excellent HSC teachers. But the research into excellent HSC teachers. And they found that what was common about excellent HSC teachers is they didn't know there were excellent HSC teachers.

Drew: 58:01

It's one of those things where we need to sort of think about it. It's great to have that thinking and people go. That sounds obvious. I want to do that. My issue at the moment is it's time's it's time. Where do I fit in the time to do that? Sounds good in theory again, and a great theory approach. How are there any solutions to that? That time question?

Dr Jason McGrath: 58:26

yeah, time and space is the critical resource that people want, but I suppose that requires leadership from different levels to provide that space. Evangelica Demaruti developed this jobs demand resource idea, the theory, and she did it partly with work in schools and she's an organizational psychologist, so she's not a teacher. But what she identifies is that everyone in their job wants more demands. In some parts of their jobs they actually want more opportunities and in others parts of their work they want more resources, they want more support. So it's a question of how you can create those opportunities or provide support. In this case, we're talking opportunities. So what I'm saying is providing these opportunities may, in fact, make people feel better about their work, increase their job satisfaction, even though it might actually be more of it. Now, obviously, we want to create more time and space. That's a given, and when you toe into it and you start giving time or space, you find something. Then you see the benefits of it and it empowers people. But in all of these questions it always comes back to time and space.

Drew: 59:53

And I guess the thinking is is the RFF time and I know that I'm probably going into a controversial space but is marking and paperwork as an example could be a good use of time? Paperwork of good as an example could be a good use of time, or is it an opportunity to, as you said, explore beyond your context, learn from others and really have that knowledge that can really empower you as a teacher or a leader to improve student learning outcomes? That's the question.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:00:30

Yeah, and I think the answer is actually there is no one answer. Just like we talked about the teacher personas, we actually looked at teachers' job satisfaction over their career path and we need to think about teachers at different parts of their career and we can see, through the TALIS data, different periods where different groups of people were less satisfied or more satisfied. So you could take, for example and it comes down to individual personality as well, but you could take, for example, a teacher who has a young family where every minute of their time is precious, has a young family where every minute of their time is precious, so they might need that RFF time to do that basic stuff, to tick off the boxes, so they're not feeling burdened by they haven't done this, whatever it is. On the other hand, there may be and that's a generalization Not all people with young families are in that situation, but then you might find another group of families who a group of teachers who actually want more space. So we found, for example, working in Austria they have a lot of small schools, small primary schools and some teachers who actually had had their family experienced teachers actually wanted more opportunities, actually wanted more opportunities. So they were at a point in their career where they were very experienced teachers but they actually wanted to engage with a bit more professional excitement. But the system, it wasn't identifying those people. They didn't actually have a space to say you know what, if I had tapped you on the shoulder, you'd say yes, because I've got more space in my life and I really want to learn how to do blah blah. Or I've got this passion that I've developed after 20 years of teaching and I want to really go and explore it and I want to give it back. I want to give back to the system. So it's about seeing things differently and it's about again teachers as professionals are at different phases in their career and therefore have different needs.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:02:25

The question then becomes what's core? What do we have to demand for everybody and what can we create space? You know we talked earlier about families. Some teachers are really great at connecting with families. How do we give them more space to connect with families? Some people are good community builders. Some are great at their curriculum. How do we build that up? We have this other provocation which we borrowed, stole from a different piece. If you use the, we say football in Europe, but in Australia we say soccer, are we staffing schools as a team of midfielders? Everyone's got to be the same. We don't allow space for the forwards and the backs, and the wingers and the different. Do we spend enough space? Do we enough to allow people to show their passions through?

Drew: 1:03:17

Yeah and that interestingly, no plug intended, but it's aligning with some of our work in our association. One of our work of Liz Wiseman, whose work is about finding the genius in others. Her work is on multipliers and finding the genius in others is what I've heard you're saying. If you can find the geniuses in others, you don't have the midfield team. You actually have a team of superstars working together and becoming this all-star team, which would be fantastic, Exactly.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:03:53

And also that's what we want to attract young talented professionals into teaching If they see that the top end of the young professionals are going to want to be part of it.

Drew: 1:04:05

Yeah. Now, if we go back to the research, if, if we can, the exciting opportunities we have as an association is to build on the work of ann mcintyre through new research funded by the principal australia research foundation. And here's some questions. I want your honest feedback of where we we think we should be going. If we could research anything right now to help our principals lead better, what should we be exploring and what emerging topics do you think hold the key for the next decade of leadership?

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:04:43

Yeah, so it's really school leaders are the key to transforming the education system, but they're already at their limits. It's really school leaders are the key to transforming the education system, but they're already at their limits. So how do we redefine the role? So we started this project. It was new professionalism and the future of teaching, so we focused on teachers as opposed to school leaders. We tried to separate because other work was happening around school leaders. But as we worked our way through it, more and more we had to come back to this idea of the role of school leaders, because school leaders are the key to transforming the system, and so it's up and down.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:05:22

The work in the school needs to be done by the school leaders, but also the learning that happens needs to be done shared with the system itself. So AI, for example the only experts with experience in using AI in classrooms are current principals and teachers, so we have to draw on those if we believe that their expertise should be valued. So we need to think about how this works. As I mentioned earlier, there are different profiles of principals as well, so we can't necessarily set up one profile. We have to allow for differences. Some people are really good at different aspects of the work. So we have to think about it as a collaborative project anyway.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:06:10

So how can leadership be more collaborative a role? It needs to be a collaborative role. How can it connect with other school leaders? How does it connect with researchers, policymakers and the broader societal sector in the local community? These are questions that we need to think about. These are questions that we need to think about.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:06:32

How does learning, innovation at the school and the cross school get curated and shared with the system? So how does it influence the system? So, for example, in Ireland they had this great project called the Beacons Model, which stands for bringing education alive for communities. Policymakers work at a town level so not in one school, but a series of schools to explore ideas with school leaders and students and families and the community. They develop actions that are going to be followed up and looked at again, but then the learning from that is fed back into the system, because they've got system leaders there and it's called policy from the middle. So they're developing their policy from learning from what they're finding in the Beacons model. So it's a great example where working together supports different aspects for schools, towns and then for the system.

Drew: 1:07:28

Well, aspects for schools, towns and then for the system. So food for thought, really, in terms of where to go. There's those topics that you've and it's just a matter of it probably makes it more complex. It's really understanding what are we trying to research and what is the impact we're trying to see through this research.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:07:51

So it's breaking it down into short and long term. So if we believe that the role should be more collaborative and if we believe that the principal role is part of the transformation process, we just need to say that's our long-term goals and then we need to start to say well, what's already happening? Give me some examples of what's already happening. How do we build on those models? Let's do some research. What are other countries doing? Some countries do it differently, but let's learn from these different countries.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:08:23

So there's short-term decisions that can be made, but this is a long-term question. Term decisions that can be made, but this is a long term question. How do we like a great example you guys are doing with, you know, commissioning research to look at this aspect? And one of the things we did when we did research seminars in every country is we encouraged them to include practitioner researchers, people who are doing postgraduate research, who are in schools. We should value that and see that because they bring a certain expertise. But it's a long-term good thing and, as I said to you before, as simple as talking more about it and let's see what emerges. Trials a few things, pilot a few ideas, build a lighthouse approach.

Drew: 1:09:13

Yeah, yeah, really good examples, Jason. Now let's, we're close to wrapping up. We've got a few more questions. We've got three quick questions for you, rapid fire. Are you ready? If you had to sum up the future of teaching in one phrase, what would it be?

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:09:35

So the late eminence Professor Coulahan said there's a three-letter word we need to hear more about in schools and in education, and that word is joy.

Drew: 1:09:44

Nice, yeah, yeah, lovely.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:10:02

Which education system or country is inspiring you right now? And there's only a very few Estonian-speaking people in the world, so therefore they're not able to get the big software companies. They're not interested. So what their government does, it's a highly technological society anyway, but what their government does is they broker between schools and developers of technology. So it starts with what do schools want, what do teachers and school leaders need? Then they work with local companies to develop local solutions. So I think that's a really great example of what we need to be doing in the future.

Drew: 1:10:48

Ah, that's interesting to hear because that's somewhat in Western society. Not the same way. It's more the technology is informing education of which direction we're going and everyone follows accordingly. Yeah, interesting.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:11:02

I was just going to say. There's another example in the Netherlands the Nolai Institute, where they're doing exactly the same thing where the universities. The Nolai Institute, where they're doing exactly the same thing where the universities, the institute, which is funded by the government, actually starts with teacher problems and then they bring in the scientists to work out what it means, and then they bring in the development companies. So it's a great example and they're going way beyond the idea of just looking at AI prompts and things like that. So Inga Molinar's work in NOLA is another great example of it.

Drew: 1:11:33

Wow, I love how you can just draw upon that. It's fantastic. Third question a must-read or must-watch resource for our listeners.

Dr Jason McGrath: 1:11:45

Yeah. So I would recommend the last two webinars from our project, the OECD New Professionalism and the Future Teaching Project, not because of the project itself, but what's interesting about these webinars is that it brings together experts like Linda Daly-Hammond, inga Mulliner, who I mentioned, with teachers and school leaders on the same panel, and it's actually the teachers and school leaders who are very inspiring because they're talking about work that they've done over a decade, and it's one of the things we say in the future's work is that the future is already here. It's just not spread evenly, and so listening to those teachers and school leaders who have initiated change and transformation is quite inspiring.

Drew: 1:12:30

Yeah, wow, and we'll obviously put off all of that in our show notes as well for our listeners. Jason, thank you so much for being with us today. It's been a fantastic exploring really the time, as you said, the time to actually explore the big questions, which is a privilege for us as listeners to really ponder and think about those big questions. So again, thank you for the work you do and leading with OECD and representing Australia, the small pocket of education, but representing Australia's perspective as well. Thank you again for your time. Thanks, drew. Thank you.