Professional Learnings NSWPPA Educational Leadership

Get the Cow Out of the Ditch: Rob Stones on Performance Conversations

• NSW PPA Professional Learning • Season 3 • Episode 4

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What if dreaded "difficult conversations" could transform into your most powerful leadership tool? In this enlightening episode, Rob Stones shares his expertise on performance and coaching conversations, revealing how the right approach can dramatically enhance staff engagement and effectiveness.

Rob challenges the traditional view of performance management by introducing a framework where every conversation—whether addressing behavior outside acceptable boundaries, providing feedback, or coaching for growth—becomes an opportunity to inspire better performance. The secret? A future-focused mindset that illuminates possibilities rather than dwelling on past mistakes.

"If your intention is to slap them down and discourage them, that'll work," Rob explains. "But it'll work to wreck their motivation." Instead, he guides us through practical approaches that honor staff members' values and positive self-image while still addressing performance issues directly.

One of the most powerful insights comes with the "cow in the ditch" metaphor: when something goes wrong, first fix the immediate problem, then understand how it happened, and finally implement changes to prevent recurrence. This simple framework shifts conversations from blame to continuous improvement.

The episode offers practical wisdom for school leaders at all levels who want to transform their approach to staff performance. Whether you're struggling with challenging staff issues or simply want to elevate your leadership communication, Rob's thoughtful strategies provide a roadmap for conversations that energize rather than deplete your team. His two-day Performance Conversations workshop builds on these principles, offering structured practice in a supportive environment.

Are you ready to replace anxiety with confidence when approaching difficult conversations? This episode might just change how you lead forever.

To view our Professional Learning Offerings visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning




Speaker 1:

Welcome to Season 3 of Professional Learnings, the New South Wales PPA Educational Leadership Podcast. I'm Drew Janicki, back as your host for a brand new season. It's great for you to be with us as we continue this journey of learning, leading and drawing inspiration from the incredible insights of our amazing guests. Let's dive into our latest episode. Today, our guest is Rob Stones, who joins us to discuss his new professional learning offering Performance and Coaching Conversations. Rob shares insights on enhancing staff performance through effective performance and coaching strategies. This is a critical area for many school leaders. But before we dive into the conversation, let's hear first an extract from Rob to set the context for today's podcast.

Speaker 2:

Hello, I'm Rob Stones. I'm here to invite you to join me in a workshop program over two days called Performance Conversations. I'm passionate about people having really skillful performance conversations. In their role as a leader, every conversation you have with a colleague or teammate is an opportunity for you to enhance their performance, to encourage them to work towards your shared purpose and to confidently take on these conversations with every opportunity that arises. So when I talk about performance conversations, the one that everybody thinks about is the kind of archetypal, difficult conversation where there's an issue with a staff member and you have to try and resolve that issue.

Speaker 2:

I call them boundaries conversations often because it's when people are outside the boundaries of acceptable practice in your school.

Speaker 2:

They're only difficult because we don't know how to approach them.

Speaker 2:

If you approach them the right way, if you use the skills that I can teach you in this workshop, then they'll no longer be difficult, but just routine conversations and the other kinds of conversations are all related. They're the kinds of conversations where we want to give somebody feedback that will enhance their performance and not just sound like a you've done very well conversation. We want to be able to take conversations with someone who knows they need some skill enhancement and use a coaching conversation in order to keep building their confidence to try to do better in whatever they're trying to improve. And all these conversations, as you'll learn in this workshop, are related. They turn around half a dozen key skills that you will if you come to the workshop. You'll practice, understand how they work and how they work together and walk out of the two-day workshop feeling confident that you'll be able to handle any performance conversations that you have an opportunity to handle any performance conversations that you have an opportunity to have with another colleague. Hope to see you there.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well, rob Stones, welcome to our podcast today. It's fantastic for you to be with us. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this discussion around performance conversations and the work that and what the messaging is for those listening in terms of what is a performance conversation and what would the professional learning look and sound and feel like. So, looking forward to today's discussion, rob, I will start with why. Can we start with the why in terms of why do we need performance conversations?

Speaker 2:

I guess it comes out of my experience and deeply held belief that any conversation between a school leader and a staff member is an opportunity, and the opportunity is to enhance performance. If we're careless about it, then conversations can have various outcomes. A school leader is thinking, every time they have a conversation with a staff member or a colleague what are the ways in which I can make sure that the result of that is they're more committed, more engaged, clearer about the work we're doing together and altogether more empowered and enabled in order to do their work well? So if you think about the kinds of performance conversations cue slide. So often people think of it as a corrective conversation or what I call a boundary conversation. The leader is concerned about something that the staff member colleague is doing or not doing.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so that's one kind of performance conversations. Another kind is a coaching or mentoring conversation, where the staff member actually is looking for improvement. And the third kind really is a feedback conversation, where you've watched something or heard about something the staff member has done and you want to give them feedback, but you want to give them feedback in a way that will enhance their future performance as well as let them know that you approve of this one. So all these exchanges have the potential to be to be growthful and help staff members focus on, you know, whatever the direction we're going in and the values that we're trying to pursue, any of those things- yeah, that's a really interesting in terms of, as a leader, listening and those listening would have had coaching conversations, would have had mentoring conversations or would have feedback conversation.

Speaker 1:

What's the key to that differentiation, Rob?

Speaker 2:

Well, the coaching conversation is essentially the staff member is engaged with their own performance and they are asking advice or or seeking to pursue some improvement and you coach them or mentor them, depending. Coaching is really just helping them work out their agenda. Mentoring will include some some advice and experience sharing. Um the other conversations, you know the corrective or boundary conversation. You're calling for the conversation because you're concerned about something, but the trick is to not make that a top down, one, up on downup, one-down blaming conversation, but to turn that into just as much of an enhancement to performance. So in a corrective conversation, what we're doing is we're trying to take the person's current performance okay, except that's a given that you know you're concerned about it, but you're looking for an opportunity to make sure that the future is very different and a feedback conversation very similar.

Speaker 1:

It sounds easy in theory, but what does that look and sound and feel like in reality?

Speaker 2:

Well, surprisingly, apart from a few things, the two conversations don't actually sound much different, or the three different conversations don't sound much different once you understand the skills involved, because they need to be future-focused and they need to be relationship-focused and they need to be positive conversations. So, whatever kind of conversation it is, you're not ever holding up a mirror to the past and going no good or this is bad or whatever, because they're discouraging conversations. What you're doing instead is, um, holding up a torch lighting into the future and going. Here's what it could be like. Wherever you are at the moment, wherever you're starting from. If you're at the moment because of something that's happened, you're starting in a fairly bad place. That's irrelevant. That's just about what you did now or in the past. What we're concerned with is how can you learn from that? How can you take that into a future improvement?

Speaker 1:

So it's a mindset, it's an attitude, yeah very much so.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think so. It yeah very much so. Yeah, I think so, and I think that that the way you start these conversations and your intention is going to have a strong influence on the outcome. If your intention is to to sheet home a shortcoming, make sure that the other person knows that they failed in one of their key accountabilities, that'll go nowhere. So, really, the first thing is step one what do you want from the conversation? Do you want that staff member to be a more useful, a more enthusiastic, a more engaged person in the future, or do you want to spend some time discouraging them? Because you can do either. If your intention is to slap them down and discourage them, that'll work. But it'll work to wreck their motivation, to make them feel bad, and very few people work harder and better if they're feeling bad about their job. So, step one what do you want? If you want to make sure that whatever's happened, it's going to get better in the future, start with that attitude.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, in terms of principals having those thinking around those performance conversations. They might have been thinking about that for a while and the angst in those conversations is all the how they're going to react to that piece. But what I've heard is not coming into that conversation of how they would react. It's coming into the conversation of what you would like yourself as a leader from that conversation.

Speaker 2:

Yep, that's pretty much it Thinking about it. We've all had both kinds of conversations. Well, most of us some of us are unfortunate They've only had the blaming conversations from their own leaders in the past, but most of us have also had leadership experience where those people that they saw as very important to their careers their leaders instead of spending any time talking about what they'd done wrong, ask them about what their own self-evaluation was of what happened and then turn that into almost like a coaching conversation for how to improve it in the future.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so, Rob, can you tell us further about these conversation pieces so we can break them down further?

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean, I think I'll just focus on the one that most people find most difficult is the difficult conversation, because something has happened and you have to address that in some way, so you can't ignore it. You have to think about how do you want the person to feel as they leave the conversation. Do you want them to feel that they can work on their improvement, that they can be more effective in future, they can be energized because of that possibility? Or do you want them to be sad and feel reprimanded and all of the things, all the emotional side effects that being put down or reprimanded brings with it? So what we want from these conversations is a person finishing the conversation with us, leaving it smiling, knowing we've got their back, knowing that they're focused on a more positive future.

Speaker 1:

I'm not saying that's easy, no, no, I'm hearing the cynics in the listeners who say this great sounds, fantastic, rob. All in theory. However, in reality, I've had a conversation like this before and we're back to feels like we're back to square one with to addressing similar behavior. What advice do you have there?

Speaker 2:

I think that cynicism kind of undoes the whole conversation, because you start feeling that it will be valueless and that all you can do is make sure the person knows they've done something wrong. But I think the important way to think about it is that very few people want to do badly. Very few people enjoy the exchange of acrimony and feeling that, right or wrong, their boss feels they have done badly. And if they do feel the conversation goes like that they're going to really be defensive, feel the conversation goes like that they're gonna really be defensive throughout the conversation. They're looking out for the fact that you're gonna threaten to hurt them or that their opinion of you is diminished and that things are gonna go badly in future. So if you start the conversation with any hint of that, okay, whether it's whether you're right that they've done something really bad or you're wrong, there is. It's the future that matters, because unless you've got the inclination and the power to sack them immediately, right, this is a person you have to work with in the future. Um, whether we're cynical about that possibility or optimistic makes a certain amount of difference, because you'll communicate that. If you can start out, let me know. Perhaps I can just give you an illustration.

Speaker 2:

Uh, one of my um of my colleagues came to me. He just had a terrible incident with a class where he ended up screaming, basically at the class and he used some words he shouldn't have used and he was right outside the boundaries, you know, the shouting was outside the boundaries for me, using bad language and so on. So I just started by saying how would you describe what happened? And he said oh well, you know, I shouted at him, you know, said some things I regret now and so on and so forth. Okay, okay, so if you could go back and redesign that moment and think about what, if you were living up to being the best teacher, you could be in that same situation again.

Speaker 2:

Is there any way you could change that scenario? And he said yes, of course I could have done this and this and this. Okay. So I said you know, I think that our job. Then, as we talk about this, you know, and as we acknowledge that it wasn't really appropriate or so on, and that there's lots of things that we could be doing or saying that would make it even worse, let's just focus on that I know I could have done better bit and see if we can figure out exactly what you can do next time you're stressed by the either classes apparent intransigence and you're feeling emotionally overwrought, turn on instead. That'll create a better outcome. So you may notice that I'm doing exactly the same, putting the same scenario to the teacher as I'm trying to put to us as leaders. Yes, we can awful eyes it as long as we like, but the only thing that matters is if you're there again, can we change things?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and in terms of the professional learning in that space, is that what participants would experience that time to be able to practice the performance conversations?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. The workshop itself. It will be largely around people experimenting with the kind of language, the kind of approach that we want them to use and that they can use in the future to make those conversations really positive. So all useful conversations have these two elements they're solution focused, they're future focused, they're opportunities to start again.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and this is not a black mark on the person's record. Okay, this is a point where there's a choice to be made. We can, I can, as a leader, can make it a time for generating more positive interactions with this person in future, and the teacher can use it as an opportunity to be more productive and better capable of dealing with the stresses of their job. And that's the fork in the road. If we go one way, we can build our communication with the teacher, we can build our relationship with the teacher, and if we go the other way, one or both of us leaves the room feeling resentful and discouraged.

Speaker 2:

Because here's the crucial thing the alternative is not to have a productive conversation. The alternative is to have a conversation which is very much one up, one down. Okay, I'm telling you off because I'm in the role to tell you off and you've done, done wrong and I'm going to make sure you know that and does that make you, as a leader, feel good? My experience as a teacher is it never does, because you know that, much as you can rant and rave in the moment, in the future there's more difficulty with that person and with that relationship. We're not headed towards a good solution, we're headed towards just the possibility of a repeat performance, because we set it up like that yeah, it's making I'm hearing a really conscious choice of that attitude, rob.

Speaker 1:

When, when you are that fork in the road in terms of how you do do respond, and the and the default can be that power over as what I heard is a is a choice that, as a leader, and whether that's a behavior that has been learned or that's something that, in terms of the professional learning that you can teach, there is an alternative, because some people may think there is no alternative to that fork in the road. And what if something I guess hypothetically, what if something has really gone badly wrong? In terms of that space, what's your?

Speaker 2:

thinking there. Look what people will leave. This performance conversations workshop is not a magic wand. Okay, I hope they'll leave with a clear understanding that blame leads to defensiveness and avoidance of responsibility by the teacher. People rarely feel more responsible after they've been chastised. Okay, and whatever your intention, it can end up like that. Someone who's not prepared to take any responsibility for their behavior won't acknowledge that they did the wrong thing, however gently you put it to them. Doesn't think they need to improve? There's no way that there's a magic wand for that and there are deep mental procedures for that sort of stuff. But that's not the place we're starting from.

Speaker 2:

We're starting from okay, a mistake has been made, unfortunate and inappropriate behavior has happened. Okay, now do we pick the person up and point them to the right direction and push them out into the future? Okay, or do we slap them around the face metaphorically and make sure they understand what a bad person they've been? And the other person has a choice of this. They can choose to work with us when we extend that conversation, and my experience is that almost everybody will. Okay, if you're dealing with a true sociopath, they won't know they've done anything wrong, so there's no way we can make much progress there. But most teachers are not sociopaths. They're people who have. They're people who have a really good intention, but they are in a stressful job where frustration is occasionally leads to some inappropriate behavior, and I think that and I think that's how we picture it this is a person who fell away from their usual predisposition to do the best they can and the circumstances got the better of them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I like what I'm seeing on the screen here is it's either a lose-lose situation, a win-loss situation, a lose-win or a win-win.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you know I suppose we're both. You know everybody thinks win-win is pretty much a fantasy, but in these situations it's really. If we can feel that either I suppose we both. You know everybody thinks win-win is pretty much a fantasy, but in these situations it's really. If we can leave the conversation feeling the person knows what to do in the future, that's a win for us, it's a win for them because they know what to do in the future. Okay, power over conversation looks like a win for us and lose for the other. But it actually always turns into a lose-lose because it doesn't take away all of the problems that will occur with that staff member in the future.

Speaker 1:

Let's continue on. We've got the key to difficult kinds of performance conversations the key to difficult kinds of performance conversations.

Speaker 2:

So I guess what I'm saying is you treat them very like coaching conversations because hopefully, if you can make that switch to focusing on what to do instead, then they end up enhancing performance. To do instead, then they end up enhancing performance. Bring the staff back into the shared purpose of the whole thing. It'll build great enthusiasm. It can be surprisingly inspiring for a teacher or assistant principal, deputy principal, to have the conversation with the boss about something they didn't do okay, and yet they leave the conversation with this real sense of okay. I've got the capability to do much better next time and next time I came in that situation I feel I can handle it now because I know what to do.

Speaker 2:

So so I kind of look back on my own experience. I was a young phys ed teacher working as the only phys ed teacher at that time in the in the lower school. Um, you know big London comprehensive and there were lots of of issues. Um, I um did something pretty stupid when one of the couple of the kids did something wrong and I made all the the children run until they were exhausted and kept shouting at them and you know doing that old Sergeant Major routine.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and my deputy principal, who was a great guy, a malefiction, and he took me aside and he said how do you want those kids to remember you? I was the question he asked me. I said, well, well, because a good teacher, I suppose. So he said, if you had to run that scenario again, got in that situation again and the main thing that you wanted from it is for those kids to see you as a good teacher. Would you have done something different? Oh, I was convicted straight away. I was, of course I would. Okay, he said well, what would you have done? I can't remember what I answered, but I know that whenever I answered, it meant that every time I was getting frustrated by the behavior of the class, I thought about that in the future and I did something completely different. He had an inspirational influence on my life and my teaching performance because the way he conducted that one conversation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it stuck with you ever since, hasn't it?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely yeah, so hopefully that became part of how I tried to do things.

Speaker 1:

Because of the way it made you feel. What I heard is the way in which he approached you. He, in the position, could have come to you completely as a power over in terms of how that would be approached, but he came to you in a way that yeah, how did that feel?

Speaker 2:

Yeah good, and also the fact that I know that some of the student's parents complained to him and I never got any backlash from that, and especially because I then worked hard to change my relationship with that class. Whereas it could have been the other thing he could have thrown me under the bus, he could have brought in parents to tell me how bad they felt he could have taken some kind of discipline. The negative the thing is we could all think of a scat of negative things to kind of do to people. But I think what we have to remind ourselves, and remind ourselves every time something like this comes up, is the only person who can change the behavior is the person themselves. Um, we can't change the behavior. So if we want them to choose a better behavior next time, want them to choose to be the best they can be next time, we have to have to try and persuade them to look at it in a different way and make that decision for themselves.

Speaker 2:

A lot of the difficulty that principles deal with is the cultural belief that people can be made to do as they're told by fear and threats. But a very wise man, peter Drucker, said many years ago if we want our staff to do really well and to give their very best. We have to treat them as if they're volunteers, right? Not people we had power over, but people who were just extending their service. Really wise words, because that's actually how it is. You know, we look around at the staff members who are performing in exceptional way in our, in our school. They're volunteering to do that. There's nothing in the rules that says that you have to do that. They all go above and beyond. So it's that kind of mindset we're trying to seed in a person that we're talking to every time we talk to them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, rob, and let's continue with what is the key to all performance conversations.

Speaker 2:

Well, just, you will have heard me talk in values, heavy language all the time. Focus on the positive intent and the staff members picture of themselves as a good person. We, none of us, want to think of ourselves as a bad person, and it's the positive values that we need to talk about. So you know the staff member who you know. Simple example of a staff member who's habitually late, and we can bang on about them habitually late, and we can. You know they'll blame their environment, they'll blame their environment, they'll blame the circumstances for their behaviour, and so on and so forth. So that's the bottom of that pyramid of influence.

Speaker 2:

But if we want them to make a change, if we want them to focus on the important things, I don't talk to them about being how many times they've been late on. I'm talking to them about like, what is the? What do you believe about the value of punctuality and, um, certainty for the students and your colleagues? And we have a completely different conversation. Then, right, honestly, they just flips it completely so that them being defensive about their behaviors they talk about well, you know. So I most will say I do know that it's I shouldn't be trying to be more punctual, but I get overwhelmed by the circumstances of my life or something like that, and then we talk about we have a coaching conversation or even a mentoring conversation that will help them to deal with that.

Speaker 1:

It's completely flipping, isn't it, with those beliefs?

Speaker 2:

Yep, and the thing about values and beliefs is they influence our capabilities, our behaviors and how we manage the environment on the person, so that if we want this person to leave our conversation going, I am capable of doing better. Then we have to work at that level, not the level at which they can come up with excuses.

Speaker 1:

So it's really what I've heard is it's from the leader's perspective to come in with those values and belief and before that, the vision, their identity, and then the values and belief.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I mean the school's vision and the school's sense of shared purpose are very much part of the conversation, rather than you forgot to do something.

Speaker 1:

And then do we work through in the course. Is there further frameworks to beyond beliefs or beyond values and beliefs?

Speaker 2:

Very, very clear framework. So you know it would be boring to put it here, but we step people through a process, okay, so that you know you need a process, you need to go. Okay. I start here. In this conversation I ask these kind of questions. I respond in this way if the other person becomes negative. And so that structure, those frameworks, help you to practice, because this is all your worthwhile courses are about practice.

Speaker 2:

In this course there's lots of practice in the course course now. That's why it extends over two days and why we've got an opportunity for practice over a whole range of scenarios. People will be invited to bring their own scenarios to it. People bring the conversations that they're dreading having or know they did badly at, and we can work through those and rehearse them. And then they leave with a structure so that they can rehearse them back in their workplace. And you know, rehearsal is really important. Whenever I had to have a really challenging conversation with anybody, I would practice it with another person first, often one of my deputies or perhaps a person's head of department or his AP, so that we could just you know, so I could hear what it sounded like and we could fine-tune it. And in that situation it's easy to keep the structure because you know you're practicing. But then, once you run the structure, once it's easy to do it again.

Speaker 1:

And you're coming into the course, potentially with people or people you don't know, but people at a similar level, whether in an executive level or a principal level, who have an unconscious bias towards your current situation that you're working through and rob. Where where does this piece fit in in terms of? We have our as you are a facilitator for our art of leadership master class and, of course, we have the art of leadership. Where do you see this piece fitting in that, in that pl framework?

Speaker 2:

I think it complements it. We tried to embed the art of leadership when we wrote it, some time looking at and practicing performance conversations of all those three types, and in the masterclass we do focus on those again, but in the context of, in both cases, a very big program that covers lots of strategic and cultural and so on differences. It's hard to spend the time on it In this course. It's two days solidly focusing on performance conversations. We don't have to go to the other places. I mean inevitably, people who've been to the Art of Leadership and done this course ask me some questions about how it relates to other things and I'm happy to answer that question, but I really try hard to focus on.

Speaker 1:

this is a practice opportunity for you to leave here with enhanced skills yeah, yeah, absolutely, and and that time to be able to do that with practice, so you can improve those skills. It's not something I think that's not necessarily practice as well or as much as we would like until that feeling, overwhelming feeling, comes through and we go. I wish I had time to practice this conversation because now I need to dig myself out through whatever situation the person may be in. And, in terms of going back to where it does fit in, I heard you could come in without out-of-leadership course experience or you could actually have out-of-leadership experience and come into this. Is that correct?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it doesn't make any difference. I mean, the course is focused on all entry levels. You know whether you're a confident um a person who's confident because they think they've got pretty good um communication and conversation skills anyway and you've learned a lot through some course, like the art of leadership you've done, or whether you're you're identifying, as this is something I really need to learn. I don't know much about it. Um, the course is invitational enough um, so you can come in at any level, so it's a really safe environment. Um, you know the present. Some present there'll be. There will be some presentations in the large group, but lots of activity in small supportive groups who get to know each other really well during the course of the two days.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, through your courses I see so many connections, not just during the course but beyond, which is the power of that connection piece that brings people together. So if we go and focus on our values piece, a few people spend if you can continue on where that values piece fits in performance.

Speaker 2:

Well, whatever type of conversation you're having with someone, if the intention of the conversation is to improve their performance okay, then it has to focus on something they value doing. Okay, because what we do is, if we see value in doing something, we will develop the capabilities for it and learn the behaviors. It doesn't matter whether it's a skill or capability that's professional or one that's in an activity or a hobby outside the school. If you're going to spend any time on something, it'll only be because you value doing things, because people don't spend the time and energy cultivating a behavior or an interest they don't value. So we really do, yeah, absolutely. So this kind of complements our whole approach. We focus on the value and people respond to the value not necessarily to us, but go, yeah, I really do think that's important, or I really do want to be seen as that person.

Speaker 1:

Okay, let's move forward, Rob, in terms of what's some other key messages for people listening in curious about? Tell me more, Rob, about performance conversations and coaching conversations.

Speaker 2:

I think one of the things that I notice is that a lot of people treat feedback conversations as kind of you've all done very well conversations and don't think about how critical the staff member or colleagues own self-evaluation is. So if I, if I'm, if I'm having to walk past a classroom and stop for a moment, I'm really impressed by what the teacher is doing. I can tell the teacher how impressed I was and that's a pat on the head, but I can start a conversation instead going. Okay, I was really impressed about the way in which you held all of the kids' attention and got them absolutely focused on the key concept there, about the way in which you held all of the kids' attention and got them absolutely focused on the key concept there. Tell me a little bit more about what you were doing and how you were thinking about it. Okay, so I'm asking every time there's an external piece of praise or feedback from me, it's an opportunity to say well, what did you think? And I suppose I learned that very early on, because I was a deputy principal at one stage in my career and my principal kept telling me what a great job I was doing I didn't think I was doing a great job at all. I would have really liked to have an honest conversation about the things that I was struggling with, but a pat on the head doesn't give you any opportunity that all you can do is go thanks, boss, um, and move away from it. I would have liked him to say um, you know that, for example, about a way I took um a school assembly.

Speaker 2:

School assemblies were very difficult to bun down me. You were kind of in a room, kind of people who are older would remember. You stood on the top veranda and talked to the people in the playground below you and communication was difficult. So I did. I was pretty good at getting people to be quiet listening to me, but I wasn't very good at engaging them in the things I was saying, because the feedback I got afterwards is, you know, like Rob's delivered another sermon, which is the feedback from kids and my colleagues.

Speaker 2:

When I actually asked for it, um, now, from, uh, from my boss, I would have liked a bit of how do I do it differently? Um, and if he'd asked me to self evaluate, I would have said look, I've got, I've got, I've got them under control. I don't think I'm communicating with them and lots of people that I've given self-evaluation to, given given feedback to over the years. When I've invited them to self-evaluate, they really say surprising things and the surprising things really are productive in the fact that it generates the conversation, generates some thoughtful consideration of their professionalism and skill and the edges of their learning that are so much more significant than just patting everybody on the head that are so much more significant than just patting everybody on the head.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean this could go in various forms. That whole self-evaluation piece is and you go back to that classroom example and I hear a saying where don't step past the standard that you would not accept, and I'm sure you've heard of that statement before, but it's not coming in at a power over. There's a difference in terms of how that approach could occur, and that is through a self-evaluation process. But you really, as a leader, you could set that climate through this professional learning opportunity to be able to really see how you can get to that self-evaluation point. And what I heard is you were craving that from your perspective.

Speaker 2:

Yep, you know. People often point to the research which shows that most teachers feel they don't get enough feedback on their performance, and people often take that to mean they don't get told enough about what's wrong or what could be improved about their performance. They're not looking for that. Teachers are generally cognitively engaged in the work they do, so when they say they want feedback, they want thoughtful feedback. They want, if you like, critical feedback when they feel they haven't done very well, accompanied by some coaching feedback. They want often straight coaching feedback that gets an opportunity. How would you do it? So? That's when these these basically three layers of conversation the critical boundaries conversation, the feedback conversation, the coaching conversation all come together and merge. We as leaders often have to be clear about which conversation we're involved in, but the teacher will learn from it anyway If we do it well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that's part of the practice, isn't it? For seeing where you are at and being consciously, I should say, aware of where that's sitting, in terms of what type of conversation am I going into and what is the outcome that I would like from that conversation? So, really, takeaways are being really present for when people which is a skill set in itself as well, if we move into now the opportunities for performance conversations, rob, can you tell us further about?

Speaker 2:

that when we have a performance conversation to give our colleague positive feedback, if we take that extra step to get them to self-evaluate, the whole thing goes to a different level. So we're using our skills to encourage a colleague to evaluate themselves and the standard is their present best okay, and what we're always wanting to encourage them is to keep improving, keep growing, because I think that that's a key task for the leader. If I can look at my staff every year and think that for all of my staff, I can't say I ever remember a time when I could say that, but that's the aspirational goal. I can't say I ever remember a time when I could say that, but that's the aspirational goal. All of my staff, through the things that I encourage them with or the feedback I gave them, or the opportunity I gave them to look at themselves in the mirror, will learn something that makes them a better teacher for next year than they were this year.

Speaker 1:

I think that's what everyone would hopefully be in the profession for trying to continue to improve their performance, yep, but not at a level of being berated or being put down or having negative self-thoughts about their performance.

Speaker 2:

No, I mean. Eddie Shine used to say some really interesting things about learning and growing. He says if you're learning to catch up, it always feels stressful. Someone gives you the impression you're behind, you know you have things that you have to learn in order just to keep up with everybody. That's not a growthful experience. But if you're growing in order to improve, to feel that your own skills free from comparison with anybody else, your own skills are being enhanced and getting better, then you put energy into it.

Speaker 2:

So that's, if you like, the piece that some of our masters sometimes forget. Learning to catch up isn't good, and one of the things we talked about frameworks, but one of the things we you know I talked about frameworks, but one of the things that's included here is the GLASA framework for performance conversation. As you know, I'm a choice theory practitioner, teacher, teacher, so I believe that this has a has a great capacity to give us the flexibility, once we understand the framework, to tweak each performance conversation depending on the feedback you're getting from the person, so that we're always pointing towards enhanced performance as the outcome.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it says here that powerful coaching conversations are based on William Glasser's reality therapy. For those unaware what is reality therapy by William Glasser?

Speaker 2:

Reality. Therapy is a way of talking to people so they take responsibility for their own behavior and the quality of their own behavior in the future, you know so it's a therapeutic model when you're a counselor but we're not counselors. It's a marvelous, inspirational and aspirational model for helping people to, in every conversation, elicit from the other person what their ideal want, is what it is that they would be if they were performing at the best they could be, and help them to work towards that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the choice theory, concept and reality therapy is. Is there a timeframe, rob, for that to be mastered, or is that based on one's own experience?

Speaker 2:

No, well, in this course, all we can do is teach the framework for reality therapy, to give people a framework to work from, mastering the psychology of internal control, choice theory, all the skills that are based on classes. Work is something I'm still working on over 30 years, but but I mean every. Any opportunity just takes you further, okay, I mean we we most of us want to do keep doing better at getting the things that we want and need in an ethical way to enhance our own lives. So that's a set of tools. So there'll be some people who've done some of Glasser's work come to this and again, it's just an opportunity to take it to a different level. People who haven't come across Glasser's work will still get plenty from the framework and may be inspired to go and learn some more.

Speaker 1:

The work of William Glasser is truly remarkable for those listening and for those who are aware of it. Would agree let's continue with finishing our conversation. Further opportunities here that you can elaborate on with Performance Conversation Workshop.

Speaker 2:

No, just really. I think that it's a professional opportunity. We're not sitting in front of an expert reading slides In the course. It'll be an opportunity to build your personal skills. It'll be an opportunity to build your personal skills, your relaxed and collegial atmosphere, and to just to focus on how do I get this kind of mindset that enables me to approach these conversations, how can I practice with people who are supporting me and how can I use it to create the culture that I think we all want, which is that mistakes are part of learning and we embrace them. We don't get blamed for them, we just go on to improve.

Speaker 1:

So if a mistake is made, what's the framework?

Speaker 2:

So fix the immediate problem it's created, learn from mistakes and then build better systems or new behaviours. And I guess the most powerful statement I have ever heard of that is the cow in the ditch metaphor. It helps me to really remember that there's a little story that goes with it. So Anne Mulcahy was a former CEO of Xerox and she was at a business meeting talking about how to deal with difficulties in the business and an old farmer about how to deal with difficulties in the business, and an old farmer approached her and he said look, when the cow falls in the ditch, remember three things First, get the cow out of the ditch, take action. Second, work out how the cow got into the ditch, learn from it. And third, do whatever is needed to prevent the cow falling in the ditch at any time in future. Make changes. So this is a really important metaphor for me. Okay, when somebody faces me with something that's gone wrong and is key to creating a culture of continuous improvement, okay, don't look around for who to blame. Don't look around, for you know who we can shift the responsibility to. Okay, just first get into action, get the go at it. Second, what have we got to learn from this responsibility to okay, just first get into action, get the go at it. Second, what do we got to learn from this? And then, third, what do we need to do in future? And you know, it was a really powerful model for me in working with my leadership team. Now, when things have gone well, when things have gone completely differently from how we we thought they'd be, when you were being told by central office that something we'd done was not the right way to do it.

Speaker 2:

First, fix the problem. What's the immediate problem? How do we fix it? Second, what do we learn from it? What's the immediate problem? How do we fix it? Second, what do we learn from it? Third, what can we do in future to make sure this isn't a problem we ever have to deal with again?

Speaker 1:

Such a simple yet powerful image of making sure you get the cow out of that ditch. If you break it as simple as down to that, that is, getting the cow out of the ditch is the first act and then working through. I love that. I really love that framework. It's a very, very clever but also practical way of thinking of how to necessarily work through problems.

Speaker 2:

Metaphors are easy to remember.

Speaker 1:

So, in terms of our conclusion, what would participants expect from the workshop?

Speaker 2:

Practice interaction with other people. A bit of theory, a bit of psychological insight, people, you know, a bit of theory, bit of psychological insight, um, then working out how to to um become more confident and competent.

Speaker 1:

It's, it's focused on self, yeah, and it's very, very experiential.

Speaker 2:

It's not. You know, there's no lecture component. There are demonstrations and you know I'll demonstrate and get other people to. So there are times where we're watching somebody else try to do something, but most of the practice is in small groups, so it's not intimidating. I mean it's all under the umbrella of performance conversation, so it's not intimidating. I mean it's all under the umbrella of performance conversation, but they're effectively leading difficult conversations, feedback conversations or coaching conversations, whatever. The outcome will hopefully always be that a colleague will grow and improve as a result and we'll learn something ourselves every time.

Speaker 1:

Fabulous Rob Stones. Thank you for your time today. Thank you.

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