Michael Burgess: Elevating Educational Leadership and Advocating for Public School Excellence

Discover the incredible journey of Michael Burgess, the newly elected President of the New South Wales Primary Principals Association, as he shares his unique path from a childhood rooted in curiosity and learning to becoming a leading figure in education. Michael opens up about the pivotal influences that shaped his career, from early technological exposure to the powerful encouragement of mentors who saw his potential. Listen as he reveals how these experiences solidified his belief in the essential role of relationships in leadership and the profound impact principals have compared to classroom teachers.

As we move through the episode, we delve into the evolving landscape of educational leadership, highlighting the significant responsibilities principals bear in shaping young minds and future citizens. Michael discusses the indispensable role of the Primary Principals Council in supporting the professional growth of school leaders and emphasizes the resilience needed to manage the complexities of policy implementation. The conversation also touches on pressing challenges such as adapting to diverse educational contexts and the upcoming changes in salaries, working conditions, and new syllabuses.

In the final segment, we focus on the importance of self-care and advocacy for principals, accentuating the need for reconnecting with the core motivations that led them to education. Michael speaks candidly about the mental health challenges facing students, the ethical implications of AI in classrooms, and the ongoing struggle for fair funding in public schools. Through collaboration and strategic discussions, the power of collective experience among principals is harnessed to foster positive change, ensuring that education policies are both equitable and effective. Join us for this compelling episode that not only celebrates the leadership journey of Michael Burgess but also champions the relentless pursuit of excellence in public education.

To view our Professional Learning Offerings visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning

Chapters

• 0:10 Educational Leadership Journey With Michael Burgess
• 10:41 Role of Educational Leaders in Society
• 19:55 Supporting Principals for Wellbeing and Challenges
• 27:16 Principals' Influence and Advocacy Journey
• 38:24 Public School Funding Parity Advocacy

Transcript

Drew Janetzki: 0:10

Welcome to Season 3 of Professional Learnings, the New South Wales PPA Educational Leadership Podcast. I'm Drew Janicki, back as your host for a brand new season. It's great for you to be with us as we continue this journey of learning, leading and drawing inspiration from the incredible insights of our amazing guests. Let's dive into our latest episode.

Michael Burgess: 0:35

One of our consistently in our surveys not only our surveys but other surveys support of colleague principals is always really highly rated. So that's an absolute strength of our association is that we bring principals together to connect principals to principals, for that support and for sharing the knowledge and leadership and that sort of thing.

Drew Janetzki: 1:03

Well, it's great to have your company. In this episode we hear from our newly elected New South Wales Primary Principals Association President, michael Burgess Hear about his educational background, his leadership story as well as his optimism for 2025. People listening. If, for example, I had a question here, if you could give one piece of advice to a principal who was just starting their leadership journey, what would it be?

Michael Burgess: 1:33

well, congratulations, you've just joined. The best job in the world is the first comment I would make. Um, the advice would be look after yourself as the number one priority. The second piece would be relationships. Everything you do is around relationships. So you know, in your first period I know there's going to be a lot of pressure to be doing the admin work and your budget and those which are important. You need to do those, but you've really got to be spending your time in relationships. Get out, get to know your staff, get to know your parents, get to know your students, get to know your community. Build those relationships. Spend lots and lots of time building those relationships.

Drew Janetzki: 2:23

Welcome, Michael.

Michael Burgess: 2:25

Thank you, great to be with you.

Drew Janetzki: 2:27

Fantastic, great for you to be with us as we commence an exciting 2025. Michael, can you start by taking us back to the beginning of your journey? What first sparked your passion for education and how did that evolve?

Michael Burgess: 2:45

Well, I suppose I was privileged to grow up in a family that was, you know, valued curiosity, valued learning. As I grew up my mum was a teacher and my dad was a farmer. And growing up in the country that's what you did. You did things, you learnt things, you got out and other bits to do with computing. And then one of my lecturers in my final year brought the first Apple Mac into one of our lectures or shoots I can't remember exactly what it was and you know, taught, showed us what it could do and you know that sparked another bit. I went on and did some programming, wrote some programs, computer programs for microbees if any old people out there remember microbees and those sorts of things. So that whole learning and the technology were all part of, you know, my growing up and building to being a teacher and and being a learner ongoing.

Michael Burgess: 4:04

And then when I finished my training, it was a time where there weren't jobs for primary teachers. So I went and taught high school and I was fortunate enough to go to a place, gundagai High School and the principal there, alan Dundas, was a great principal school and the principal there, alan Dundas, was a great principal and he saw that traditional learning wasn't working for the kids at the high school and so he had these themed programs going in the high school and as a primary teacher it was really good because I fitted into that really well. But it showed me that, you know, traditional learning doesn't have to be what we used to see, you know, the teacher out the front providing information to students, trying to feel the students heads with information. It was, you know, a really more experiential experience again for that. So that was another period that really sparked, you know, probably my future direction in some ways. Then I was out in one teacher school, bought a couple of Apple computers there and did that.

Michael Burgess: 5:28

But the next part that I suppose built my leadership was when I went to Avalon in Sydney and Frank Farrell, who was a previous president of the New South Wales PPA there I set up computer labs and built a partnership with Apple, and Frank Farrell, great forward thinking like I, went to him with this proposal and went this is what I want to do, this is what it's going to look like, partnership with Apple, and he went, yep, go for it, it. And so we set up a couple computer labs, uh, with apple, uh, in partnership with apple and they use the labs for testing software and for I came and do promotional shoots and things like that, and. But you know we had all the technology and all the software and that, as I went on, though, technology was a key in building my leadership, even though I probably didn't recognise it at the time, because, you know, I was asked to go and talk to groups, provide professional learning for people. So it built not only my skill and knowledge around leadership, but it built a reputation, and so when I got to a point where I wanted to look at leadership, you know I probably was struggling. I didn't know whether I really wanted to be a principal.

Michael Burgess: 7:17

Because I looked at principals and I went do I really want to do that job and have that responsibility? Uh, and once again, it was one of the great principals I've had the privilege of working with. Diana Hanks said to me well, in a classroom, you're influencing 30 kids. As an AP, you're influencing 90. As a principal, you're influencing, you're making a difference for 500 plus kids, and that sparked something in me and sort of set me on my journey towards being a principal. From that point, the other thing that really helped me in terms of my journey to being a principal was Bill Lowe, who was the regional director at the time on the Central Coast. I'd been out, I'd gone out of schools as a consultant and I thought I was pretty good. And I went to Bill as my contract was finishing and said, oh, I'd really like to go back as a principal into a school. And he went no.

Drew Janetzki: 8:23

He went no.

Michael Burgess: 8:24

Yes, he said, look, you've got plenty potential, but what you need to do is to go back as a dp in a really tough school. So that's what I did I went back to as a dp, dealing with really difficult, complex, traumatic sorts of things. But when I did become a principal, it was great because I'd already dealt with all that hard stuff. And so as a principal, yeah, um, you know, I knew all the systems, I knew how things worked, I knew how to get support, I knew how to to navigate everything. So it made it easier to concentrate on leading and leading education and um, so I was pretty fortunate. I've had some really great mentors and principals in my time, yeah, yeah, fascinating in terms of the background.

Drew Janetzki: 9:29

What I heard was a lot of curiosity, michael, in terms of what drove you was that curiosity going back to that spark, as you said, in year five, and then also hearing year six and seeing the complete, almost the opposite experience, and as you went through your schooling you felt that I heard that curiosity again came through in year 12. So you're coming across in terms of curiosity is what drives you, I'm sure that's part of you know from early age, growing up in the country.

Michael Burgess: 10:08

As I said, you know you're out in farming communities, you've got open land, you're off exploring and doing things and you know.

Michael Burgess: 10:21

But you also have to do work and build things and yeah you know, complete tasks and all that sort of thing, so that there's a bit of discipline that comes in. Uh, through that curiosity, um, yeah, so I think curiosity certainly has been part of my, my journey. The other thing that I remember as a relieving principle I used to go to ppc meetings and I used to sit there just in awe of these principles, um, in the room who just knew so much and, um, you know, they were so to me and they were so wise in, you know, their decision-making as a beginning principle, finding my way, listening to these people, and it was a really interesting experience that you know. Over a few years I got to a point where one day I looked around the room and I was that old, wise person.

Michael Burgess: 11:25

Everyone else had suddenly become, you know, newer principals than me.

Drew Janetzki: 11:30

So how does that feel?

Michael Burgess: 11:37

Ah, look you know. Obviously great, but also a huge responsibility in helping and guiding other principals along the way. But it also taught me the value of the PPC, the Primary Principals Council at a local level, because that's where you saw other principals and how other principals worked and listened to their stories and how they led and what they did and you know all of that influenced me.

Drew Janetzki: 12:12

And here you are now the president of the association. How does that feel?

Michael Burgess: 12:17

It's a huge huge privilege, an absolute privilege, to be leading the principals in the state. You know we have the most amazing principals leading public schools in New South Wales and I don't know that that's always valued as it should be. We're a highly skilled, uh, group of people. Yeah, um, and yes, we, we teach students to read, to write, to do math, but we're really producing the next group of citizens for the country, um, and that's a huge privilege and we've got to not lose sight of that that. What we're growing here are people and citizens, and not just people that are doing a test every couple of years. We're growing the next group of people who are going to, you know, lead and run the country, and we're the one in the privileged position to make a difference for the kids who are perhaps disadvantaged. We're the ones.

Michael Burgess: 13:35

Politicians can make all the decisions in the world and set up programs and set up and provide money and resources, but it's the principals and the teachers on the ground who make the difference in those kids' lives every day, and that's one of the privileges of being in this role.

Michael Burgess: 13:53

Talking to principals, visiting principals and seeing through the goodness of people's hearts, too, is the other aspect of that that isn't recognised. Yes, schools are resourced and funded to provide an education, but to make that difference through the goodness of people's hearts, too, is the other aspect of that that isn't recognised. Yes, schools are resourced and funded to provide an education, but to make that difference in that difference being made every day by the members of our association takes extraordinary work and extra work. And you know, I see all the time and I hear teachers and principals going out of their way, giving their own time, giving their own time, sometimes their own money, to support a family, support a student, to make a difference in that child's life. That's going to have a long-lasting influence on what happens, not only for that child but for our society as well, absolutely.

Drew Janetzki: 15:01

And well said, michael, in terms of it's a huge responsibility. But also, you went back to the why. In terms of why are principals in that role? And it is all about, as you said, it's all about the students enabling that curiosity factor and enabling, as a society, to utilize education to get the most out of our students. So it's a you know it's a huge risk responsibility and it's also an important part in the terms of what the New South Wales Primary Principals Association plays we're the ones on the ground.

Michael Burgess: 15:42

We know what works, and we know what works in our context, because that's the other aspect of the New South Wales public education system is. The contexts are so broad, you know, from metropolitan to rural to remote, hospital, schools, environment centres. There are so many different contexts in terms of schools, and principals on the ground know what works in their communities, but they also know they look at the research, they know what works in terms of learning more generally as well, and I think that's part of what our role is as an association is. We know what works and we need to be able to influence the decision making that's going on at a policy level to support us to do our job and to have the resourcing at our level and the flexibility in that resourcing to make it work within our context.

Drew Janetzki: 16:45

And is that where you see your role and where the PPA is currently positioned at?

Michael Burgess: 16:52

Certainly. I think that's part of what we do and where we're going. We're really good at influencing the implementation of policy and programs. We really need to have more influence about the decision-making around policy. You know, sometimes these decisions are made without understanding the complexity of where we are, the complexity of the variety of schools we have, the variety of students we have. So we need that understanding before the decision is made, not after the decision is made. Yeah, although that's still going to be an important part, because we want to influence every decision, but we'll still need to influence implementation, but we need to work towards influencing the decision before it's made.

Drew Janetzki: 17:52

Yeah, we talk about big rocks. What do you see as a big rock, or any big rocks for this year?

Michael Burgess: 17:59

Well, I think the biggest challenge for principals this year is going to be the implementation of the salaries and working conditions agreement, which has some great things in that agreement, but it presents some challenges for principals, particularly around staffing part-time staffing. But the one thing I know is principals are highly skilled at taking these policy and decisions and making it work on the ground. So I'm very confident that we'll work through it and come to a way of working with or with all those changes. But that's going to be a challenge on top of everything else. I mean, we've got four new syllabuses to implement which is, if that was the only task.

Michael Burgess: 18:55

that would be enough, but it's all the other things on top. And as an association, we'll continue to advocate for principles, but we'll also continue to share information, share ideas and assist principals in that implementation.

Drew Janetzki: 19:10

Yeah, so they're two big rocks there alone syllabus implementation as well as looking at basically the HR budget component in your context In terms of educational leadership. It's such a complex, or it could be a complex, but it is a complex and evolving challenge. What do you think are the biggest challenges facing educational leaders today?

Michael Burgess: 19:36

What do you think are the biggest challenges facing educational leaders today? How long?

Drew Janetzki: 19:39

do you?

Michael Burgess: 19:39

have. Well, I think I'll start with principals' own health and wellbeing. Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest challenges for principals is the job can be all-consuming. So helping principals to look after themselves, be kind to themselves, is a really important part of what we do, and obviously we have some programs like Flourish and things that we have. But it's also um helping principals understand their personal um. Well, I suppose it's empowering them to make their personal decisions, to understand and to look after themselves and put some limits in. And you know that idea of auditing what you're doing, what your workload, how many hours are you spending having that sense of auditing? And then, what can you cut out and what can you amplify? What are the things that are working for you, what are the things that are really helpful to you and what can you amplify to get um to improve your own health, uh and and well-being?

Michael Burgess: 21:02

um, and giving it's not really giving permission, that's the wrong way to put it probably but for principals to get out of the office and on, go and sit on the floor in the classroom and do the things that light them up in school. And get back to why you became a principal in the first place. What was it? What was your motivation? You know we talked about my journey, but you know what really motivated you to be a teacher and then a principal? And how do you reconnect with that purpose? How do you get out from all the paperwork, emails, emails and get back into the classroom to do the things? That's probably the biggest challenge and I remember, you know, when I first became a principal, I spent most of my time out in classrooms and that's become more and more difficult over my time as a principal the workload being stuck in the office is increasing.

Michael Burgess: 22:10

Other challenges, I think mental health of students and families and staff for that matter. I think there's increasing mental health issues, which presents big challenges dealing with parents that have mental health issues that we can't resolve. It's not in our power to resolve those, but we have to manage what we have at school. So you know that's an area of work for us as an association too, to work with the department, how we can improve that and strengthen that support for principals. You know principals are great, highly skilled workforce, sure are that can manage all sorts of things thrown at them. But then you'll get something really out of the box, something way out of crazy things that happen. And another thing I knew crazy things happened in school but since I've taken over as president, talking to principals, some of the things that happen in schools.

Michael Burgess: 23:25

If I talked about them people would go you're making that up. But you know there are crazy things that happen in schools that are really challenging for principals and for staff to manage.

Drew Janetzki: 23:39

But we do. And, Michael, do you see the Association as a strength of that?

Michael Burgess: 23:45

Oh, absolutely. You know, one of our Consistently in our surveys not only our surveys but other surveys support of colleague principals is always really highly rated. So that's an absolute strength of our association is that we bring principals together to connect principals to principals. Other challenge areas disability, students with complex needs. How we balance that off is a real challenge for us. Early childhood there's obviously an increasing emphasis on early childhood, the number of preschools going to schools, so that's a challenge for us how we work with preschools. But that whole concept of linking and building partnerships and transition with early childhood providers will be an ongoing challenge. Ai artificial intelligence I can see that being something that's going to be really challenging for us. Um, lots of benefits I think there'll be lots of benefits in terms of our work, our workload, how we go about creating um information and documents and yeah resources and all those sorts of things.

Michael Burgess: 25:14

Uh, there are great benefits, but they're going to be real challenges around who belongs to that creation? You know who?

Drew Janetzki: 25:23

who created that goes back to that, as you said, that curiosity at the start, but also that other thinking, is that critical thinking in terms of evaluating that, that piece that is so vitally important, which comes with maturity, or comes part of that curiosity, critical thinking nature.

Michael Burgess: 25:44

Absolutely, and I have some really good ideas about where we're going with this and I know that we're going to work with the department this year on what sort of supports, how can we use it, what are the ways we can really leverage AI and also, how do we manage the challenges and there are ethical challenges. There's a number of things there that we'll have to work with. So, once again, it's a balancing of the benefit. Ongoing challenge for us in new south wales um, rural remote yeah, there's a you know new strategy for rural remote so it'll be great to watch that be implemented and grow.

Michael Burgess: 26:34

Um, what we're doing for our Aboriginal families and students Equity, disability again, you know, refugees huge, low socioeconomic what are we doing for all of these students? And you know, as I said before, there are great things happening. I know there are great things happening in schools to mitigate disadvantage and to lift those students and their families, but it's still an ongoing challenge for us and it's something we need to continue to work with and it's part of the plan for New South Wales public education equity. So that's great and we'll continue to work on that. I mean, I could get keep going, oh there is.

Drew Janetzki: 27:18

I was going to say there are so many, so many, as you said, so many rocks there and and you went through and all of those are really, really big rocks. Are you optimistic about 2025?

Michael Burgess: 27:34

Absolutely. I'm an optimistic person anyway, but I think the one thing I know about New South Wales public school principals is that we'll navigate any challenge, Anything that's thrown at us. We can find a way to make it work in schools.

Drew Janetzki: 27:56

And if they're not finding a way in schools, where does the PPA fit in here?

Michael Burgess: 28:01

Our strength is our 43 primary principals' councils across the state and that's the first place that principals engage with the association. I think a bit of a theme of what I'm talking about today is around influence, and those PPCs are empowered to have influence at their local level. So they need to be talking to each other, firstly, but also talking to department people, the directors, any other Department of Education people that they come across their local Teachers Federation meetings, the Department of Education people that they come across their local Teachers Federation meetings. You know they can have influence there. So as an association on the ground we're in every community across the state and so we can have influence in all those communities through the association. And then the other aspect obviously is the local PPCs' feedback to the state bodies. You know every principal has a voice through to their PPC, to the state bodies, to the minister, to the secretary in the senior department officers.

Michael Burgess: 29:08

One of the key pieces of work we're going to be doing on this in term one is around our strategic plan as an association.

Michael Burgess: 29:17

To be doing on this in term one is around our strategic plan as an association. Our current plan is coming to an end, so we need to revisit that and look at you know what are our steps forward for the next couple of years. So that'll be a key part of our work going forward and we'll be seeking those voices. We've got the presidents and delegates coming into term one state council and they'll bring the voices of people to influence that strategic plan and we'll continue the other supports that we have. So our professional support officers are working to support principals all the time. Our partnerships we have around things like flourish will continue to work with the Department education to have influence there. Our professional learning suite is providing support to principals and then it comes back to once again to the individual principal, though they have power within themselves to take action for themselves, to support themselves, and whether that's reaching out to somebody, whether that's using one of our programs, whether that's attending a meeting and raising an issue through a meeting, you know each individual principle, yeah.

Drew Janetzki: 30:37

I really I hear that optimism coming through, michael, and I hear the words you're saying. People listening principles all have a voice and it can make influence and you do make influence at your local level. But network and share that voice to your colleagues through your ppc, go through those channels and that is the power.

Michael Burgess: 31:00

Really it is that such a power that affects size across the state of 1800 principles in 43 ppcs yeah, absolutely, and I mentioned before when I was a relieving principal, going to the ppc meeting and sitting there in awe of all these principals with huge amounts of knowledge in those meetings and having discussion. But the other thing I saw that influenced me was them taking on department people. So when the directors came to the meetings they would ask the hard questions. They would ask the hard questions. Um, you know, and as my involvement in the ppa grew, I became involved in some other groups and I remember kerry moore, who was a great um principal and she led the finance and admin team for the ppa.

Michael Burgess: 31:50

I remember being in a meeting with her one time and she had this sort of saying she used to go, she used to go. Now, hang on a minute, and I think the department people would know, okay, and she would be very firm but polite, you know, respectful and that, but she would really drill down with whoever she was talking to with. She would really drill down with whoever she was talking to with. Yes, but how does that affect at a school level? Yeah, you know what does that look like at a school level? How would a principal manage that, you know, and ask those, really ask those questions and not be afraid to challenge the director, because I think as a beginning principal, you see the director and you go, ooh the director. But then over time you realise that they're your supervisor. But you can have that professional discussion with them and challenge and ask the questions in a respectful way.

Drew Janetzki: 32:59

Or challenge a system as well, isn't it really? It's challenging those systems that affect not just one principle but have that collective you know, and that's the voice and the experience of the principle. I should say where that knowledge comes. What does it look like, what does it sound like, what does it feel like on the ground as a principal and then sharing, having that ability, through the PPA, to share those concerns in a safe environment, to be able to share the concerns without any sort of ramifications, so to speak.

Michael Burgess: 33:32

Yeah, and there's times I mean mean some of the decisions that are made and some of the policies that come through, you know, create huge challenges for us and sometimes there's a very emotional response to that and you know, through your ppc there's an opportunity to have that emotional response.

Michael Burgess: 33:50

but once we get past the emotional response, we've got to work out a strategic way to influence what happens going forward. You know, and there's that old saying about being inside the tent or being outside the tent. You know we want to be inside the tent but we want to be able to be inside the tent and make enough ruckus so that they know we're there without getting kicked out of the tent. So you know, we've got to ask the hard questions at time. And you know, part of my leadership journey because this is what we're talking about I remember I was invited down to that ground that's why I got chosen to go to it and I remember sitting there and they were talking about this program, lmbr, and introducing lmbr and and that sort of thing. And it was. It was a consultation, it was called, but it wasn't. They'd already made all the decisions. And you know, despite the fact that at that meeting we stood up and said you know, we don't think this is a good idea, this isn't going to work, blah, blah, blah, that was ignored and went ahead. And you know, people know what the history of LMBR is. So that was another moment I can think of that I went no, I need to be having more of a voice in what's happening in the system, because this isn't right, it's not working, and I suppose what I've learnt through my time prior to being President you know as President, the first couple of months of being President One of the things is around perseverance.

Michael Burgess: 35:33

You need to have that perseverance and the fair funding agreement is a really good example, because I went to AGPA, which is the Australian Government Primary Principals Association, as the New South Wales rep, and when I got there, obviously fair funding was a priority at a national level. But what I brought was around the 4% discount, because what had been introduced was that states could discount or they could include 4% of funding for non-school-based things. So in New South Wales, the 4% you know it was the funding for NESA and for other things. Other states, though, it was like their school bus service was counted, which didn't have any influence on schools as such. So I raised that at AGPA and a lot of the people in the room didn't know about that 4%, what that meant yeah.

Michael Burgess: 36:28

And then you know, when we met with Jason Clare and I raised that and argued around, you know that it was unfair to have the 4% in there. You know that's probably two or three years ago now and you know, but the latest funding agreement that's just been negotiated has that 4% to remove that 4%, which is a great thing.

Michael Burgess: 36:56

Of course it was a really dodgy deal that was done originally, but now the new agreement is going to remove that 4% over a few years. It will take a bit of time to remove it, but you've got to plant the seed and you've got to persevere and you've got to revisit and re-argue over time. And you know it takes time to have political influence. It's not just, they're not just going to listen to us at the drop of a hat. You've got to raise it and make really good arguments.

Drew Janetzki: 37:30

You talked about New South Wales education. Where do you, what do you see on the national landscaping? You alluded to that fantastic example where you brought that to the federal education minister and persevered through that. What do you see trend-wise in terms of across Australia?

Michael Burgess: 37:56

Australia.

Michael Burgess: 37:56

Being involved at the national level has been really interesting, because what I see is that what happens at one state often gets picked up by another state and picked up by another state, and by the time the third or fourth state picks it up, the first state's worked out it's not working and so they're getting rid of it whilst another state's picking it up.

Michael Burgess: 38:19

So we need to have some influence, interesting Influence. I think, now that we've got the fair funding looks like it'll get over the line where the federal government will be in 25% and state government 75% of funding for public schools. Even though that's going to take a little time, which is a shame, it should be happening now. I think the next part for us as primary principals National Association is parity with secondary, so I think that will be. Our next priority is that secondary students are funded at a much higher level than primary students and in reality, we should be putting the money into primary students, because if we get it right there, then it's going to make it easier for secondary schools. So that's probably going to be the next fight, I see, and obviously there's a federal election coming soon, so it's a time where we'll need to be putting some pressure on politicians at a national level.

Drew Janetzki: 39:29

Yeah, and I can hear in your voice that optimism and hope. It also comes with strategy and also the not being afraid to speak up because of the moral imperative behind the why behind that argument is that it's affecting principals, it's affecting students at the local level Fair funding, which I won't even talk about the title, but you know the Gonski report which was commissioned by the government to determine a fair funding formula for all schools.

Michael Burgess: 40:10

You know it's been 12 years and we still don't have it. And the new agreement and New South Wales hasn't signed, so I'm hoping that we'll get it sooner, but the agreement the other states have agreed to is to 2034. So it's another 10 years of public schools being underfunded, whilst independent, non-government I mean yeah, um, non-government I mean yeah, non-government schools a lot of those are being over them but a lot of them are being overfunded. And so just, I find it unbelievable that, in a country that believes in fairness, um, that we don't have public schools funded at 100% and we haven't for the last 12 years and it's going to be another 10 years, yeah it's going to be an interesting space and obviously New South Wales hasn't signed anything, so we're watching with anticipation and I'm sure that, as the President, you'll be able to keep us informed about those discussions.

Michael Burgess: 41:13

Well, the great thing is we have the deputy premier. Our minister is a huge advocate for public education, so I know that she's in there fighting for us to get the best deal in this in the quickest time that we can. So and that's part of why we haven't signed yet, but I'm very confident that will come.

Drew Janetzki: 41:37

Yeah, look, it's been an absolute pleasure discussing and we've gone in many different areas, but the takeaways are hope and optimism and principals have the voice at the local level to be able to share through the PPC. If people listening for example, I had a question here if you could give one piece of advice to a principal who is just starting their leadership journey, what would it be?

Michael Burgess: 42:06

Well, congratulations, you've just joined. The best job in the world is the first comment I would make. The advice would be look after yourself as the number one priority. The second piece would be relationships. Everything you do is around relationships. So you know, in your first period I know there's going to be a lot of pressure to be doing the admin work and your budget and those are important. You need to do those, but you've really got to be spending your time in relationships. Get out, get to know your staff, get to know your parents, get to know your students, get to know your community. Build those relationships. Spend lots and lots of time building those relationships. I remember one time I went as a relief I was asked to go and relieve in a school that had had some difficulty and walking in I'd got an old staff photo and looked up all the names and you know matched names, and I walked in the first staff meeting and when people were asking questions I could use their name in response and they were flabbergasted because the previous principal had been there a few years and didn't know some of their names. So you know, just those little things in terms of relationships are so important.

Michael Burgess: 43:40

One of the things I do when I go into a school a new school is find the naysayers. I seek out the people who aren't happy. How do you do that? Well, you, just you, know, you, you know.

Michael Burgess: 43:57

You look around, you know in the staff, the ones that are sitting up the back of the staff meeting on their phone and not engaged and things like that parents you, you get to know the parents. You see them down the car park, at the back of the car park chatting, and things like that. So you seek those people out and you talk to them, and you may not make them happy. No matter what you do, you may not make them happy, but you're going to hear things from them that are going to make you a better leader and make better decisions. So, find the naysayers and listen and talk to them, and I suppose that's part of the other piece of advice is around learn to listen, and I think that was one of the things as a leader learning to stop talking, because, as you're coming through as a leader, you're sort of the expert and you're espousing your expertise a lot. As a principal, though, I think one of the lessons I learned was you've got to talk and listen more.

Drew Janetzki: 44:57

Yeah, great advice in terms of seeking out the naysayers, listening effectively and not interrupting that workflow, because, as an experienced principal, you probably already have thought out a response, but that's not your place to actually tell them what to do, so to speak.

Michael Burgess: 45:24

Well and this is a good advertisement for things like our coaching PL and that that we offer it's more effective to allow them to come to their solutions rather than you give them a solution.

Michael Burgess: 45:40

And I'll qualify that by saying there are times where you've just got to make a decision and say this is what's happening. There's absolutely times like that, but there are lots of times where you need to be coaching and developing and allow them to come to the solution and become skilled at asking the questions that help them clarify the issue, clarify possible solutions and then make a plan to solve that problem. And related to that is you don't have to have all the answers and you don't have to have all the answers on the spot. It's okay to say I'm not sure or I'll come back to you with an answer. I think that's one of the things, too, I learned as a principal is you don't have to have the answer every single time. I think as a beginning principal, you feel like you need to have every answer, but you can say I'll come back to you tomorrow or I don't know. Go and find out, yeah.

Drew Janetzki: 46:40

And I love how you just segued into the professional learning suite, Michael. Any thoughts on professional learning that is provided by our association, and where can you just I'd like to hear your thoughts on our professional learning suite.

Michael Burgess: 47:03

Oh, I mean, what we aim to do with our professional learning suite is A meet a need and then make sure that when we're meeting that need that it's absolute quality. Pl and you know the art of leadership has been going for more than 10 years now 3,000, I think it's 3,000 people, yeah 3,000 people been through that program.

Michael Burgess: 47:25

You know a program doesn't last for 10 years and have that many people go through it, unless it's a quality program. So you know that's one of the things I'm really proud of, and you know the work of previous presidents, robin and phil, and those in building that professional learning, uh suite and making sure that it's quality and that's what we've really emphasized, um, and if it's not, we get rid of it. Um, so I think that's the first part. You know the need, the quality, where we go, I'm not sure We'll see what the emerging needs are, but obviously I talked before about AI, about disability. You know there are a number of challenges that we might look at, but whether that's our role, whether that's a departmental role or whether that's somebody else's role, they're all decisions we need to make as well. But I think it's a key part of our association is building the capacity of our members, not only for their wellbeing but also their leadership.

Drew Janetzki: 48:39

Yeah, absolutely well said. Look, we've covered a lot of ground there, Michael. Any other words of advice for our listeners?

Michael Burgess: 48:49

I don't know about advice, but I think I've got a new state executive, a great mix of experienced people and new people. So you know, over this next term or two, as a team, we'll come together and really build ourselves as a new executive team and put our stamp on the association. I'm really excited about our new executive and, as I said before, we're going to look at our strategic plan and build our strategic plan. So that's an exciting piece of work. But I'll go back to what I said before Our strength is in our members on the ground in PPCs, and so really honouring and celebrating that work is an important part of what I want to do this year and really build that influence at that level so that there's a consistent message across the state.

Michael Burgess: 49:53

So it's not just us saying it at a state level, it's being said across the state because that has influence when the Deputy Premier, the Minister, is out and about and she's hearing the same message from different places. That builds strength in our influence. So that's something I'm really keen to build and strengthen what we do, supporting people. In the challenges ahead around budget staffing, you know we need to look at how we can support principals. We have huge expertise within the membership, and so identifying, building that expertise, sharing that knowledge is a really important part of that, and you know. A final thing is around celebrating what we do. We're doing amazing things in every single public school across New South Wales every day and we need to celebrate that and we need to give thanks for that. And, as principals, we need to be kind to ourselves and say I'm doing a really good job here hugely challenging at times, but I'm doing a great job and just finally, thank you to all our principals for the work that they do each and every day.

Drew Janetzki: 51:22

Well said, michael Burgess, president of New South Wales Primary Principals Association. Terrific words of advice. You can hear that optimism in his voice. You have that voice, michael burgess. Thank you again. Thank you, thanks for listening to our latest episode. Don't forget to subscribe to receive our latest podcast updates. It helps you stay informed for the latest updates on the professional learning through the New South Wales PPA Professional Learning Suite. I'm Drew Janicki, the Professional Learning Officer for the New South Wales Primary Principals Association or the New South Wales PPA. Remember, reach out if your school or network requires support with professional learning through the New South Wales PPA Professional Learning Suite. This includes middle leaders and executives. So until next time, take care and look after yourself. Thank you.