Unlocking Educational Leadership Through Reflective Practice: Insights from Andrew Pryce and Shanti Clements

Embark on a journey of self-discovery and reignite your passion for educational leadership with insights from principals Andrew Price and Shanti Clements. Their experiences, enriched by the NSWPPA scholarship, reveal the profound impact of Reflective Practice. Andrew describes it as a crucial 'soul work' that helps educators explore deeply-held values and hone leadership styles. Shanti emphasises its role in sparking enthusiasm and buffering against the professional burnout that can effect even the most dedicated school leaders. Together, they unfold a narrative that champions reflection as an indispensable tool for professional enhancement across the educational spectrum, not merely a lifeline during times of crisis.

Venture further into the nuanced landscape of Leadership Supervision, where the old-school ideas of hierarchy give way to the concept of 'supervision'—a wide-angled lens on leadership impact. Our guests unpack tools like indigenous yarning maps and narrative reflection, framing them as means to foster critical thinking and emotional acuity. As they share stories of their personal and professional transformations, you'll recognize how reflective supervision, especially amid unprecedented challenges like the pandemic, proves to be a trauma-informed approach that fortifies leadership capabilities. For those itching to harness the power of reflective practice for their own growth, the New South Wales PPA stands ready as a beacon of support and inspiration.

To view our Professional Learning Offerings visit:
https://www.nswppa.org.au/professional-learning

Transcript

Drew J : 0:00

Hello and welcome to season two of the Principal Learning Podcast. If you're a principal or educational leader looking to enhance your skills, this is a place for you, so let's get into it. Let's embark on this learning journey together. In 2023, principals Andrew Pryce and Shanti Clements, who are also members of the NSW PPA Leadership Standing Committee, were successful in gaining a scholarship through the NSW PPA with the support of BFX Furniture. In our discussion today, they share their knowledge, excitement and thoughts on the importance of this new initiative to the education sector. It's called Reflective Practice for School Leaders. Andrew Shati, thanks so much for being here today. Could you please briefly introduce yourselves and your respective roles in education?

Andrew: 0:53

Okay, I'll go first, Drew, thanks. So I am the Principal of a medium-sized primary school in the region of the NSW in Newcastle, situated in, I guess, in the inner city, for 50 to 500 kids. I've been a principal for I mean almost 16th year now as a school Principal, having started my career in Western Sydney Mount Druitt region, out to Lightning Ridge so far outback NSW town at school To Tauri Public School with approximately 90% Aboriginal and Indigenous population and then to Raymond Terrace Public School before becoming principal at Islington Public School. I'm at Glendale East Public School now and the School I'm at I think that's given me a very diverse range of skills and understandings of the different contexts of education in NSW and the communities and the clients that we serve. Yeah, so that's my career in education, recently completed Master's Degree through University of Wollongong in Educational Leadership and last year was participant in the Reflective Supervision in Education Program.

Drew J : 2:09

Yeah, fantastic, Andrew, just shows in terms of the diversity and the range of experience you have and here we are which we will go into reflective practice. But before we do, Shanti, can you give us, our audience, a little bit of a background about yourself?

Shanti: 2:26

Yeah, thanks, Drew. So this is my 30th year in education and I've been very lucky to be principal of two schools. The first school I was at as principal was in Beauty Point in Mosman, and now I'm at Seven Hills West, which is in Western Sydney. I've been a Principal school leader, as well as in state office as an acting director for leadership and teacher quality and, similar to Andrew, I'm really passionate about educational leadership. I've done a Master's in educational leadership and I've also done a PhD in educational leadership looking at career span leadership and the impact and the influence of school principals in building high-performing teams and uplifting their school cultures.

Drew J : 3:13

And you're both scholarship participants through the NSW Primary Principles Association and I've really seen a real energy come through from both of you. I guess let's for those uninformed in our discussion today. We're going to be going into reflective practice with reflective practice, and feel free in terms of I'm sure you'll probably want to talk over each other, but I'm sure you'll take turns in that process. Tell our audience what is reflective practice and, secondly, why is it crucial for our school leaders and I'll leave that open to either of you to interject?

Shanti: 3:51

Andrew, do you want to go first, or would you like me?

Andrew: 3:54

No, I can go first. I'm going to go first. Look, it's really difficult to distill into one or two words the what is reflective practice, but if I had to do that succinctly, I would say that reflective practice is the sole work for educators. We spend an incredible amount of time looking at our roles and focusing on the technical aspects of management, some leadership, I guess, policy development strategy but this, from a reflective supervision, is the sole work. It's the opportunity to work with the leader to really dig into what they're about, their values, their problems, and provide that safe space that I guess gets them to reflect on who they are as a leader and provide them with, I guess, the opportunities to explore where they are and how they're going to lead their schools to improvement. So for me, it's the sole work and not the role work.

Shanti: 5:02

And then, building on what Andrew's saying, professional reflective supervision is an opportunity for all of us in our profession to have important touch points in our career that re-spark our mojo. It's supporting us in optimal leadership practice as well as being proactive in alleviating workplace stress and reducing the possibility of burnout. So it's very, very different from coaching or mentoring or even, let's say, counselling. It's not picking up the pieces after someone's fallen apart or is experiencing burnout. It's about making sure that you're optimally self-reflecting and that you're aware, as a leader, on how to rejuvenate yourself and how you can actually work constructively with your teams. And the model of this really comes from the clinical profession, where nurses, doctors, therapists, every month have the opportunity to reflect on their practice and the research shows that it keeps people motivated and it keeps best practice research, as well as leadership and workplace practice at the optimal level.

Drew J : 6:16

Yeah, so you're going to research. It seems, from our perspective, through the New South Wales PPA and through education, this is a new space for reflective practice supervision. Either of you could you give our listeners ways in which you said it's not at that pointy end where it's a little bit late for things or things to try, and where would it actually? Where could participants pick up this reflective supervision from either of you? Did I have to be, for example, at a leadership role? Or who was this targeted for? Who would this benefit? This work?

Shanti: 7:05

Well, you can be a teacher. You can also be a leader. The importance about this around the restorative approach is that they have a metaphor called the three-legged stool. So it can be formative, it can be normative and it can be restorative, and so it can focus not only on your teaching or your leadership well-being, but your growth and development at where your personal level is needed. So it's a very safe place to gain clarity and a broader perspective on work-related issues. And when they talk about the three-legged stool, often you can use coaching and mentoring to help support someone in a formative way, or you can use coaching and mentoring to support that normative thing which is the standards-basic. This is different. It's not about being a particular coach or mentor. It's about stepping in where supervision and that reflection is needed. So there might be times when you might need to be restorative and supportive, or might be times when you need to really focus on your job and your ethical practice. What do you think, andrew, in your experience of it?

Andrew: 8:19

Yeah, supervision is positioned very differently in terms of the restorative nature of it. I think that there is a. Well, I don't think the evidence has shown us that school leaders and a lot of people that work in social industry are actually screaming out for support in their practice. There is nothing like it in education, where there is the space to, I guess, explore your ideas, your understandings safely and have those conversations with a colleague who is trusted. And you know it's about supervision, is about the supervisory. It's the only time in the month where you get to sit down for an hour as a school leader and talk about yourself and your problems and decide your ways forward, having a good understanding of all, I guess, the risks, the benefits, the perspectives and how that will land once you've decided to move forward. It's a unique opportunity there has been. You know I guess we're talking Sharif and I have, you know, got the best part of 60 years of school leadership experience between us.

Drew J : 9:38

It's exciting the words, though, for those uninformed supervision comes across as a bit of a scary word or some sort of accountability. Can you clarify that for us? So why would I want to go as a participant to be part of? Sounds exciting, but I'm in the back of my mind. I'm like I'm not going to give all to you here, because I have a, I'm a principal, for example, and I've got my line items and so forth. Can you give some reassurance or processes from how can that be a safe place for people who are interested in going to either of you in this work?

Shanti: 10:23

Yeah. So the word itself when you first. You know we all found when we were doing the program at Sydney University, none of us liked the word supervision because we've got this very hierarchical, traditional, semantic understanding of it. However, if you sort of break it down like super vision, so it's about seeing a bigger picture, a more panoramic view of yourself as a leader and your impact with your school teams and your community. So super vision is about super, seeing that bigger picture, having a large, broader perspective.

Shanti: 11:03

And the good and the wonderful thing about it is that it uses metaphor. There's a whole range of things that you can use. You can put a spotlight on issues you can walk with. You know, walk the journey. There's the Mobius strip. There's so many different metaphors that can help bring out this reflective super vision of yourself as a leader. For example, sometimes in my sessions I've been using an indigenous yarning map, or I might use music, narrative reflection, gestalt journaling. There's so many different tools that you can use in reflective practice. The main thing is it's critical reflection on your leadership practice.

Andrew: 11:49

And I to probably be wrong on that, I wouldn't be used. Word supervision, I mean that is the technical term, but a lot of the time when I'm explaining to people what it is, it is really critical. Reflection is the space for you to reflect on the challenges of your work and the importance of it. Having a colleague principal as your supervisor is that there is no accountability, there is no line management, there is no repercussion, there is no.

Andrew: 12:24

That person said something I didn't like, so that is the actual importance of you know people that are somewhat removed from the supervisor relationship being supervisors. So, yeah, for me it's really about that space to reflect on your practice with somebody that is not going to ever hold it against you, it's not going to look at you and think, oh geez, you're really struggling in that. In this job, people can be vulnerable and really get into the stuff that's causing them challenges and that's certainly been my experience as a supervisor is that very experienced principals open up very quickly because they're desperate for this space to be able to do, to be able to understand themselves and to reflect on how they become better.

Shanti: 13:14

Yeah, and in building a watch Andrew's talking about. You know, initially when we were doing the pilot, we needed to see two principal colleagues with word of mouth Mine grew from two to six people and the principals that I am doing reflective leadership supervision with. They're experienced principals. This is something that mature, experienced principals are calling out for, because often they're the forgotten voice. A lot of the focus on education systems is in the aspiring leaders and the novice leaders, but those that are experienced also need to connect and your leader identity keeps developing across the careers. Back, and that's the beauty of reflective practice You're actually helping people get clear on their worldview, their impact, their leadership vision, their values and, as a result of that, you're actually building their self awareness and their personal and professional resilience in the process.

Drew J : 14:15

Yeah, great, chanti and Andrew. Similar numbers for you as well?

Andrew: 14:28

During the program I took on supervision of three people. Minimum was one. Two would have been better to satisfy the course requirements and get the hours. But I had another third person come to me and say I've heard about supervision from this person, do you have some time and space for me? And I made space for that person. Interestingly, I've continued on with those people into this year. They've also seen significant value in it that will continue to grow. By word of mouth, I think yeah, I don't know how I'm going to say it.

Drew J : 15:11

That's great. So, in terms of for the uninformed, is it to differentiate the point with coaching? Is there a or are we still working through a procedure of X amount of time? What am I looking if I was to look at as a principal? And the words you're saying? It's really inspiring, I'm hooked into. What am I signing up for? Am I signing up for a three session? I give, I guess, a framework to how this works, to what investment of time so I can get the best out of myself as a principal working with either of you.

Shanti: 15:47

Yeah, so typically when you do reflective supervision, it's not coaching. So you're not going into the sessions with outcomes that you want to achieve, because what you're going to be focusing on in reflective supervision is what comes up, what arises in that work week that is important for you to speak about and typically people will see, will have supervision, either every fortnight or maybe once a month. For us, we not only do we supervise, we all receive supervision. So that's part of the commitment to professional practice. We have to be authentically in that space where we're receiving it, as well as supporting colleagues in that space.

Shanti: 16:32

So it's not like coaching or mentoring where you have outcomes that you're working towards. Instead, you talk about things that arise. You then want to keep a reflection of the impact of how you've managed that situation and looking at your own emotional responses, with a real focus on what they call the unseen others. Those unseen others, for us as educators, might be our teaching colleagues, might be the parents, might be the students. So the impact of our leadership on those unseen others, which actually strengthens your diversity and your ability to communicate and really understand your influence on others. Does that help explain that a little bit more too?

Drew J : 17:13

Yes, it does. It's trying to support for those uninformed about what the reflective supervision is and I guess in terms of the differentiating point is for those uninformed again, what is the difference if I was to go Principal was to seek out the services that you are offering, what is the point of difference and what can the participant benefit from? So it's really differentiating that to the coaching model here. You've kept all of your current people that you are supporting in this process, which any program shows that if people are coming back for more, it's obviously having some form of impact in their world, in their quality world or in their educational leadership world. So it's great and that's what's exciting about the work in terms of the energy that you both you can see I was going to go further into it can see there is such a positive change. What positive change have either of you seen in yourself as leaders with this, with reflective practice, in, now that you have obviously trained in this space, either of you?

Andrew: 18:34

For me. I think I think some of the learning that I've taken from the program I apply daily in terms of the way I work with my middle leadership team. We don't engage in formal supervision, but certainly the questioning that I use the ability to get my middle leaders to reflect on some of their practices I would use on a daily basis. I've spoken about this for me is legacy work and systems leadership, which is hugely exciting. How do we leave the system better than we found it? This is a real opportunity to do that. I often say to people I don't know how inexperienced principals are doing this job. The pressures and the demands on the work are so different to when I started being a principal. That's hugely exciting for me. This is the stuff right. This is the legacy piece where we have the opportunity to provide a space that is not coaching, that is not mentoring, but will actually strengthen the system or strengthen leadership capacity for people that undergo supervision and will leave the system in a better place.

Andrew: 20:04

I don't think that that's ever been done. The evidence does show us that for people that engage in supervision, it's highly restorative. So it reduces burnout. It hooks into your core values of why you want to be a school leader and read night purpose and passion. That is not in your price making stuff up. That is the academic research around reflective supervision. For me that's really exciting. That's regenerating in itself that I might have that opportunity to provide that system's leadership and that legacy piece for me. How do I make the system better? How do I impact on people in other schools?

Drew J : 20:52

Yes, it's come through clearly from both of you Thinking and also the benefits to reflective practice or reflective supervision For those who are listening. It's a bit of an open-ended question here. Where would you like to see reflective practice? Importantly for those who are considering reflective practice, what advice would you give to those listening?

Andrew: 21:22

Yes, and I like the analogy. The supervisors are there to walk with people. We will not solve your problems for you, but we will ask the right questions that allow you to dig into your beliefs around issues, your beliefs around your problems of practice and help you find your own way forward. Non-judgmental, and how would I? Where do I see it going? Is that the second question? That's a huge question, right? If I had the decision-making powers, there would be certain people that are already working with supervisors employed by the body to start working with our leaders across the system.

Andrew: 22:21

I understand that these things take time and there's risk involved, but I think if we want to build a great education system, one that has sustainability and longevity, we have to think differently about the way we do things. Some things are not fit for purpose anymore. This is fit for purpose If we talk about principle well-being, if we talk about burnout, if we talk about improved capacity. Reflective supervision is evidence to build all those to reduce burnout. So where would I see it going? I would see that all principals have the opportunity to engage in supervision as part of their professional. I don't know hours or whatever, but I think there's actually a real space there for probably principals in their first five years of principalship, because you're just learning so much there and that's and that's probably the crucial need.

Andrew: 23:31

Where people go, you know they get into the Principalship. They go wow, this is hard right and it's always been hard right. So they can either dig on those internal resources and go well, I've got to get better at doing hard and some of us can and some of us fall over and go. That's too hard. I'm going to go elsewhere and you know, we know that there's people leaving right. We know that there's Principals leaving our system to go to Deputy Principals' job, to go back to Classroom and Teaching jobs, because the Principalship is hard, but we have an opportunity here to provide that support that does sustain people in this job for a long time. So that's where I'd say it going, but that's about my pay rate, unfortunately.

Shanti: 24:17

And for me the benefit has been in finding that third space, being able to come home and let the any of the stresses of the day go, better work-life balance and be fully present when I go home.

Shanti: 24:32

So it's the ability to know how to switch off, not sweat the small stuff, and I have a stronger sense of resilience and well-being because I'm more aware of what my triggers are or the things that actually used to stress me or keep me awake at night.

Shanti: 24:51

So I've got greater insights into how I function and how I process and I would never have had that if I'd never gone through that the process of reflective supervision. So it's really interesting. Like if someone has burnout and stress, you go to a counsellor. If someone wants to develop specific skill sets around the standards the professional teaching standards or the principal standard or even anything around research you can go and see a coach or a mentor. And that reflective supervision is about really having that balcony overview of what you do as a leader and your influence and your impact. And that's something that's really different because you know in our job you're very time-haul. It's really hard to find time in your daily practice, in your workspace, to actually have the time to critically reflect. That reflection is where you actually spark your mojo and know why you do what you do.

Drew J : 25:49

Yeah, well said both of you in terms of it, and it is the unknown space, but it's an exciting space to explore because of the legacy work that Andrew and you were as well shunned. And I really love that analogy that you were saying about the Welsh coming back and cleaning themselves up before they are in the right headspace. It's important for people, for our leaders, to be in the right headspace so they can lead effectively, and the research and evidence going back to the research and evidence is showing this is implemented in other sectors, in other social sectors.

Shanti: 26:31

One of the most beautiful metaphors that I've learnt from our Reflective Supervision is this concept or this metaphor of pit-head time, and it came out of the Welsh coal mines where, instead of you know people leading the mines going home in a dirty state as part of the industry, they gave them time to wash, clean up, put old clothes so that when they went home they are actually ready to be with their family.

Shanti: 26:59

So pit-head time is time in your workplace to clean up and to get yourself ready to go back home and be fully present. To me that's really important for morale building and we talk about critical reflection being important in education and yet we never provide that time for leaders to reflect. So what a great opportunity in Reflective Supervision to look at how you deal with things, talk about it and get different perspectives on that. And I think that's where the strength is, because often the things that keep us awake at night are the things that are unspoken, the things that you're holding on to and you're not even aware or sort of ruminating in your mind. So I think pit-head time really supports wellbeing. I think critical reflection is essential for leadership, innovation and ongoing development, and I think that that rejuvenation, mojo spark that you can get from Reflective Supervision is something that can help us, and we've been through a lot of reforms over the last few years. We've gone through COVID. This is something that is a trauma-informed practice that enhances optimal leadership practice.

Drew J : 28:11

Absolutely, and we are in the people industry, as we know, and it's important to look after our people. Look, both of you. Thank you for your time today in terms of giving us an overview and the understanding and the important work this is, and I think this is a starting point of something really exciting through the New South Wales PPA. We can explore further through the professional learning suites. Any last bits of advice I think it sounds like your is that the books are full or if anyone's going, I really would love to connect with these. Either of you, where would we point our people listening today? Or, if you're thinking about connecting to Shanti or Andrew, where could we go to to connect further?

Andrew: 29:01

It's mandatory in health for some professions.

Shanti: 29:04

Yeah, anything in the helping profession, because you know it's the people, it's the currency of connecting with people. That's so important I think. Connect with the New South Wales PPA through Drew to we can do, you know, groups, supervision, we can do. Individual Anyone who's interested in ongoing growth and development. I mean, I've actually got a testimonial from one of my principles I was working with and is it okay for me to share?

Drew J : 29:36

Yeah, if they're fine for you to share, that's absolutely fine, yeah.

Shanti: 29:41

In confidence. He's written. You know the impact of reflective supervision and he's written here. It has empowered me to recognise and navigate my own emotional responses, fostering a more empathic and connected approach to my leadership. I've cultivated a more inclusive and collaborative work environment, drawing upon the reflective techniques and insights gained from our supervision sessions. Colleagues have noted an improved ability to navigate challenges, incorporating a thoughtful and strategic approach, informed by the lessons learned during supervision. Within my family and friends, there's been a noticeable positive shift. Loved ones have remarked on my increased capacity for active listening and a more thoughtful consideration of diverse perspectives. What I, what colleagues are experiencing as a result of supervision is greater personal and professional capacity, which is just amazing.

Drew J : 30:41

The fact that they've taken that time to share that without any prompting is so powerful, Shanti. So look, thank you for sharing that. That's so powerful in terms of the authenticity of the work and the impact of the work as well. Thank you for sharing, Andrew.

Andrew: 30:58

Look well, I've got a testimonial here also from someone that I've worked with. They touched by sitting here and says as a result of participation in reflective supervision and education, I reshaped my approach to leadership with a distinct, conscious focus on the dynamics of my interactions with others. Through dedicated reflection, I've gained a heightened awareness of my own actions, words and emotions, recognising their profound impact on the actions of those around me. This consciousness has provided me with a valuable framework for personal reflection and encouraging a shift in focus towards the first person, the eye in my reflections. The effects of this introspective journey have been noticed by my principal, who has observed a notable elevation in my emotional intelligence, recognising a more advanced and empathetic style of leadership that is focused on empowering others.

Andrew: 31:44

Colleagues in middle leadership positions have remarked on the maturation of my leadership, highlighting actions that have actively supported them in respective roles. Reflecting on this experience, what sets me apart now is not just a refined set of leadership skills, but a deeper understanding of the intricate link between personal awareness and effective leadership. The conscious effort to use eye and reflection has fostered a more authentic and nuanced self-awareness, enabling me to navigate conflicts in a personal dynamics with expertise. In essence, this opportunity has not only transformed my leadership style, but has also contributed to a positive effect throughout the school. The clarity my leadership, coupled with an emphasis on empowering others, has created a more collaborative and dynamic work environment. As I continue to evolve my leadership capacity, I look forward to building upon this foundation of self-awareness and empathy, confident that the lessons learned in this reflective space will continue to shape my leadership practice for the better. Six sessions I did with that lady, six hours of her professional life, for that level of change, why wouldn't you engage?

Shanti: 32:50

Thank you, Drew, and thank you to the NSW PPA for giving us this scholarship opportunity. We are so lucky and it's just wonderful that we can contribute back to our profession. Thank you.

Andrew: 33:01

Yeah, I just reiterate what Shani said. It was when the opportunity arose. It was a little bit daunting, but I am so grateful that we had the opportunity and we went through it, because it is significantly transformational, not just for myself but for the people that I can work with.

Shanti: 33:21

Thanks, One other thing about reflective professional supervision is that it actually prevents leaders from going down a problem scenario because you're helping them be wiser and more constructive in how they work with their teams, which means that making those off the cuff, reactive decisions becomes rarer. So you're actually supporting that optimal leadership conversation and practice and reflection before they do something, not after, when it's too late.

Andrew: 33:58

Yeah, absolutely. It builds your internal decision making matrix so that you can very quickly evaluate a situation, identify the multiple players in that situation and the perspectives and how things will land before you make decisions. And it just gives you so much confidence in your decision making and the impact that that will have on all the players in a complex organisation like a school.

Drew J : 34:26

So if you're a principal or educational leader looking to enhance your skills, this is a place for you. This season, we'll be showcasing a wide range of professional learning experiences designed with your success in mind. We'll continue to focus on the values of wellbeing, leadership, growth, as well as optimising school operations. Curious to learn more about our offerings? You'll find our full catalogue on our website at https://www. nswppa. org. au/catalogue. Or you can easily book your next professional learning experience at https://www. nswppa. org. au/ learning dash calendar, dash bookings. If you or your network is interested in further professional learning through the New South Wales Primary Principles djanetzki@nswpnswppa. org. au, reach out to me directly . I look forward to hearing from you soon.